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Author Topic: air con recharge  (Read 16575 times)

Offline marinabrid

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air con recharge
« on: June 09, 2015, 10:11:10 PM »
evening all

gonna take the gal in for a recharge ,   should i run the system beforehand    or does it not matter

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Offline Chrispb

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2015, 03:58:06 AM »
Am not aware of it making any difference.
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspächer booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

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Offline sasquartch

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2015, 10:05:26 AM »
Won't matter either way.

The system will be drained of all gas and lubricant before being recharged with the specified quantity of refrigerant.

Make sure they put the correct amount in - my Gal needs 750g I think but 1250g (should be a sticker under the bonnet) was put in as the operator thought I had rear aircon as well (saw the rear heater controls on the roof) - that caused the compressor to keep cutting out. Once regassed with the correct amount it was fine.

Offline marinabrid

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2015, 01:58:18 PM »
well  heres an odd one.     got car last july,  air con front works fine    rear   only warm,  took to kwik fit who said it was fine  !   today thought as it was hot i would see if a recharge would clear the rear fault ,  took to local chap who put it on machine this morning,

on the print out he gave me said,   withdrawn 365g of gas and no oil     vacuumed for 45 mins
put in 1150g gas   as per sticker under bonnet and 10cc oil. . 
The front works fine but the rear is still warm,
ran car a few times   then on one restart the display was flashing.,  never had this before but knew it was a fault
got home and checked the fault code,,  00792 a/c pressure switch (F129)  35-10    intermittent

have restarted car a few times and all seems well,  cleared the code and not returned  and front is still cold and rear warm

so   whats the fault and the cause ?   seems to have only come to light since recharge   as never been on before 
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 01:59:49 PM by marinabrid »
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Offline Chrispb

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2015, 02:26:26 PM »
It's the same code for either to much or insufficient gas, if you confirm the two pipes going to the rear unit are still ambient temperature when running then as said before expansion valve must be blocked.

Don't get confused with the coolant pipes running under car
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspächer booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

With VCDS lite (full version) need a code clearing or want to scan for faults in the north kent area, PM me.
All for a pint of Strongbow.

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Offline marinabrid

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2015, 04:56:11 PM »
maybe the valve was shocked at getting the right or wrong amount of gas !
seems odd its just flashed now after 8 months of low gas so wonder why when the readout says the correct amount has been put in it flashed,   will see what happens.   wonder if it was recharged when i got it and its seeps out over time,  but then again    when he put it on the machine would it not detect if there was a tiny leak ?
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Offline marinabrid

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2015, 09:54:29 AM »
just want to make sure on this air con,  i understand on the mk2   the dryer is under a rubber cap that can be taken off to see if there is any signs of leak      where is the dryer housing located in the engine bay also is there a instruction anywhere of how to remove the rear panel that covers the rear heater a/c unit
thanks
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Offline Mirez

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2015, 10:53:21 AM »
The drier housing is integrated into the aircon radiator, its a a tubular looking item on the left of the radiator (viewing from the front)

Instructions in the ref library for removing the tailgate trim.
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With cream leather interior, Full Bodykit, Remapped at 145bhp, Lowered on 18's
14 VW Tiguan 2.0 TDI 177 AWD R-Line in Deep Black Pearl
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Offline Chrispb

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2015, 10:59:50 AM »
https://www.fordmpv.com/smf2/ford-galaxy-reference-library/galaxy-rear-quarter-door-card-removal-(tailgate-side-panels)/

The drier is on the front of the condenser between the front grill and the radiator.
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspächer booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

With VCDS lite (full version) need a code clearing or want to scan for faults in the north kent area, PM me.
All for a pint of Strongbow.

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Offline marinabrid

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2015, 01:06:36 PM »
thanks for that chaps, ion my previous question which has no answer      would the machine that the air con use to vacuum and recharge,     would it detect any minute leaks and therefore not allow refilling
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Offline daddyfixit

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2015, 02:50:05 PM »
air con machines empty the system first, splitting off the pag oil, then the machine creates a vacuum in the system to make sure its not leaking and its kept in this state for a few minutes.  if the vacuum doesn't drop it means there are no leaks so then the system is filled with gas, pag oil and a leak-trace dye.
   its against the law to try to fill a leaking system, the machine operator is liable !
 

Offline Chrispb

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2015, 03:04:48 PM »
thanks for that chaps, ion my previous question which has no answer      would the machine that the air con use to vacuum and recharge,     would it detect any minute leaks and therefore not allow refilling
Vacuum testing should show up a leak but I'm not convinced this is full proof, the chap I use does it the old fashioned way using a vacuum pump to clean the system then pressurises the system using oxygen free nitrogen and as the system would leak under pressure to me would seem the best way to test if there's a leak.
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspächer booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

With VCDS lite (full version) need a code clearing or want to scan for faults in the north kent area, PM me.
All for a pint of Strongbow.

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Offline marinabrid

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2015, 03:27:26 PM »
thanks for the info, will see how the summer goes  i find it odd  it was still working what i call in good fashion   nice and cool    but he only withdrew 365g of gas and no oil.   wonder if it hasn't been topped up in the past    but    why do they need so much gas  if it keeps going with that small amount i had in ?
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Offline insanitybeard

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2015, 09:43:55 AM »
The drier cartridge is sat in the 'tube' concealed under a black plastic cover (which is secured either by a size 20 or 25 torx bolt, I can't remember which) on the left hand side of the condenser when viewed from the front:

3659-0


With the secondary (top) cap removed (something that I found there wasn't much space to do on mine in situ- even with the bumper off -and had to loosen the upper condenser retaining screw on the cartridge side to allow me to move the condenser forward enough so that the cap would clear the front panel), you can see the primary sealing cap which encloses the drier cartridge, as below- that circlip was a complete a$$hole to get out!


3661-1

« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 10:04:40 AM by insanitybeard »
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Offline Mirez

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2015, 06:02:32 PM »
Just a note on Paul's post, the cap assembly was changed during 2004 to help protect against the issues the earlier car's had. Earlier car's don't have a screw securing the cap (its just a push fit) and the metal cap (the one below that circlip) was also revised to have two seals instead of just one.
03 Ford Galaxy 1.9 TDI 115 Ghia in Spruce Green Metallic
With cream leather interior, Full Bodykit, Remapped at 145bhp, Lowered on 18's
14 VW Tiguan 2.0 TDI 177 AWD R-Line in Deep Black Pearl
With panoramic sunroof, bi-xenon headlights remapped at 205bhp.
08 Ford Transit 2.2 TDI 115 in Frozen White
With retrofitted everything except another slidey door! :)

VCDS HEX/CAN - Scans/Coding done in Wiltshire in exchange for winegums! :)

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2015, 07:14:36 PM »
Ha, well I didn't know that! Due to my original condenser (the one in the picture on page 1 of this thread) having some damage to the lowest row of fins (visible just right of centre at the bottom of the condenser in said picture) I opted to replace it with a good secondhand unit I picked up. After doing the necessary work to the rest of the air con system (renewal of a couple of pipes and some seals that were leaking), I renewed the drier cartridge of the replacement unit (which I did partly because it should be changed at some point during the life of the vehicle, though most probably have never been, and partly because the secondhand unit had been 'open' to moist and contaminated atmospheric air since it had been removed off of the donor vehicle, which could have been months prior to me buying it) prior to having the system tested and regassed- it was not a particularly nice job, and the new metal cap supplied with the replacement cartridge was slightly different and would not fit, despite the replacement parts being in a kit made by Hella- the differences you can see in the below picture, along with the o-ring seals Mark refers to in his above post. The original cap is to the right, the non-fitting cap supplied in the kit is on the left. The differences are fairly major as you can see!  ::)

3663-0

I have started- and will finish at some point  :-[ - a writeup covering renewal of the cartridge, I realise it'll be mostly academic as the system needs degassing to carry out the task which means it's not going to be a job tackled by most home mechanics, but it may be of interest, plus I'll add in a few other pictures and blurb covering faults with leaking pipes, common failure points and problems etc.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 07:17:55 PM by insanitybeard »
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Offline Mirez

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2015, 09:05:58 PM »
It's technically a service item to be renewed every 2 years if you look at the official literature!

The earlier ones are the same physical design at the one of the right but with only the one seal which is much thinner and more like the one on the left.
03 Ford Galaxy 1.9 TDI 115 Ghia in Spruce Green Metallic
With cream leather interior, Full Bodykit, Remapped at 145bhp, Lowered on 18's
14 VW Tiguan 2.0 TDI 177 AWD R-Line in Deep Black Pearl
With panoramic sunroof, bi-xenon headlights remapped at 205bhp.
08 Ford Transit 2.2 TDI 115 in Frozen White
With retrofitted everything except another slidey door! :)

VCDS HEX/CAN - Scans/Coding done in Wiltshire in exchange for winegums! :)

Offline Galasz1

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2015, 09:08:17 PM »
Is it possible to buy the cartridge on its own? Any pics of it on here? Cheers.

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2015, 05:57:37 PM »
Yes you can buy the cartridge, it usually comes with a replacement aluminium top cap, o-rings and circlip- the cartridge looks amusingly like a rocket:

3665-0
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Offline Galasz1

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2015, 09:35:29 PM »
Thanx Paul! Is the cartridge dealer only part or can I get it elsewhere? Do you have the part no for it? Cheers.

Offline SilverBeast

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Offline marinabrid

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2015, 11:09:53 AM »
re  my rear air con and the opinion that its the rear expansion valve , if no gas is getting around the rear system  could the amount of gas put in when refilled cause any problems if it can't go around the system as it should
just wondered,..
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Offline insanitybeard

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2015, 06:35:18 PM »
If the rear expansion valve is blocked then it would stop gas from flowing around the rear 'branch' pipework, which tees off from the front air con pipework above the gearbox at the rear of the engine bay. I don't think putting the correct amount of gas in for a dual air con vehicle will do any harm, the blockage would only stop gas flow on the rear part of the system, and after refilling the gas would fill all of the pipes in the system, even up to the blockage as it would flow from both directions via both the feed and return pipes to the expansion valve until it could travel no further, so the pipes would all be filled with gas as normal, it just won't circulate around the pipework for the rear system from the tee points.
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Offline marinabrid

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2015, 04:42:06 PM »
hi again   all air con experts !
well  fitted new rear expansion valve,  regassed correct amount   just the same,  rather a tad upset !
onwards with your help……

so i clamped the rear heater supply pipes as suggested by air con chap stu simpson in leeds    still the same temp from  the roof vents   the cabin temp, 23c
put vagcom on  and a fault appeared, 01186 rear air distribution flap motor (v136)    i cleared it and reatrted car     no more faults    so don't know what that was or why it came up ,   could this somehow be involved in the problem ? 

what else now   any suggestions welcome,   the two air con supply pipes one is a tad warmer than the other   but no coolness on the pipe.   when i put my hand in the air box at the back where the flap is  it is hot air in there,  not cold as it should be.   do i need to open the whole assembly to look inside for something else ?
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Offline insanitybeard

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2015, 05:19:31 PM »
If the heater/ mixer (distribution) control flap or motor is at fault then it could be the cause of the problem, for the rear air con to work (and for the air con evaporator in the rear blower box to do it's job properly) the flap needs to direct the blown air through the evaporator. If it isn't doing that but is instead directing it via the heater matrix then this would account for the warm air you're getting.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 05:23:42 PM by insanitybeard »
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Offline marinabrid

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2015, 05:30:57 PM »
o  where do i start looking for these flaps  ?   also   if it was the flaps.  wouldn't one of the pipes be icy   to indicate the system was working as it should    but just that the air was going the wrong way
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Offline insanitybeard

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2015, 05:46:30 PM »
Not necessarily, if the blown air isn't being directed through the evaporator then the system won't be working properly/ efficiently- i.e, the refrigerant gas won't be taking heat in from it's surroundings, at least, not at the rate it should be, therefore you wouldn't have such a marked difference in temperature between the air con feed/ return pipes.

The control motor should be visible on the exterior of the rear blower box (which will need the nearside rear quarter trim panel to be removed to see/access), number 5 on the parts diagram you posted the other day.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 05:47:48 PM by insanitybeard »
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Offline marinabrid

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2015, 06:55:12 PM »
hi i still have the rear panel off from swoppin the expansion valve

there are 2 motors as no.5    one at the very rear of the unit    this must be working as when i fiddle with the air direction on the climate control unit   you can see it open and close

there is another that seems to be in the middle of the unit   but i can't see how that one operates

looking like they the same   i wonder if i swop them over ?   there are no fault codes now i have cleared and re run the car   so doesn't this mean they are both working as they should ?

are there any relays or electrical things that are in the system for the rear that may have failed ?
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Offline marinabrid

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2015, 08:22:39 PM »
I have checked both flap motors and both seem to be working as they should.    when on ac cold  setting the inner flap door is down and exposes the evaporator so i presume warm air should blow over that and become cool ?
when i turn the heater up   the for raises and blocks the evap off.     the outer motor just alters the big flap that send the air up into the roof or out through the floor    this is working fine

what else ?   any suggestions before i call it a day and put the cover back on and be happy with front ac only    more than a lot have got i know !
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Offline Paul.benjamin55

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2015, 10:22:20 PM »
Hi there I am having same sort of issue where the heater is only blowing hot air I have change the climate control unit and have had the system regased but no change anyone know what the common issues with this are so I can try and brake it down and does anyone out  there know how to bring up a fault code on the climate control unit so I can look in the right direction
Thanks
Paul.

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2015, 12:11:07 AM »
I have checked both flap motors and both seem to be working as they should.    when on ac cold  setting the inner flap door is down and exposes the evaporator so i presume warm air should blow over that and become cool ?
when i turn the heater up   the for raises and blocks the evap off.     the outer motor just alters the big flap that send the air up into the roof or out through the floor    this is working fine

what else ?   any suggestions before i call it a day and put the cover back on and be happy with front ac only    more than a lot have got i know !

Can you see if the motors and flaps are moving as they should be? With the rear air con switched on and temp set to 'LO' the flaps should be fully directing the air from the blower motor over the evaporator and the out of the top duct towards the roof air vents. If the fault isn't to do with the flaps & motors then it's odd that a fault code has come up relating to it. With both motors/ flaps behaving themselves as you observed, was the air coming out of the rear roof vents still only at ambient temperature with the engine on and the rear air con on?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 12:13:59 AM by insanitybeard »
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Offline marinabrid

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2015, 09:57:42 AM »
hi
yes indeed    both motors and flaps are working as they should.  i checked each one,  with a/c on low.  the inner flap is down allowing air over the evap   but  not cold,  there is still no coolness or heat to the a/c supply pipes up to the expansion valve     the evap is normal air temp when you touch it.
 the right amount of gas was put in,   the front  cold as it should be   the rear  still air temp.
no fault codes showing now   have reset everything ,  removed and disconnected the cc unit.  i even cleaned it out as per the instructions to remove dust from the sensor.

I'm at a loss as my a/c knowledge is very limited. i have googled to increase my brain power on how a/c works,
when i removed the old expansion valve there was trace of oil it   so it wasn't bone dry  so i presume something is getting up to that point.   seems the
evaporator is next in line but seems the main fault there is leakage ,   i have no leaks in the system according to the a/c chap,  he's not an a/c expert . he put it on an automatic machine to vacuum and refill.


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Offline Chrispb

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2015, 11:05:12 AM »
Hi Martin
Am still convinced you have a blockage in your lines, have you looked under the car and followed the pipework from where it enters the car at the rear all the way to the front where it's tee'd onto the pipework that supplies the front unit.
I'm now thinking one or both pipes have been crushed squashed or even disconnected.
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Offline marinabrid

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2015, 01:40:31 PM »
well Chris   i will get under it and have another look   but I'm sure they looked intact when i checked.
i wonder if i very slightly loosened the securing bolt on the supply to the expansion valve i would hear then any gas coming out which would prove or disprove your theory    or would it ?

if gas was getting there   but not back   would fit still not get cold  ?
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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2015, 02:07:33 PM »
odd now,,, when i turn on ac    the display flashes and am getting a/c pressure switch fault,   wonder if over charged as  this to is happening

when i run engine at say 1500 rpm   its then losing 250rpm as the compressor kicks in    then it goes back to 1500 after a few seconds.    if i increase to 2000 rpm   it again loses 250 rpm for a few secs then goes back    does this sound ilk overcharged ?  i had something similar with mk 1 years ago with too much gas in.   didn't do it before refilling
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Offline Chrispb

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2015, 02:13:22 PM »
problem loosening pipes is yes it proves gas is at the valve but not through it, am going to ring my aircon chap that I've been using for years and see what he suggests, meanwhile if you can confirm that the rear pipes are OK and are actually attached to the pipes at the front, will let you know soon as I hear back from him.
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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2015, 02:53:15 PM »
THANKS you are a star     i have turn air con on and slackened the bolt on the rear expansion valve and    nothing    no hissing no nothing  getting there  but the pipes are indeed attached all the way up to the front.

wish i thought of slackening before i got it regassed and swopped the valve.   what about the hunting of the engine   ?   i put my home fill can gauge on and it showed well into the danger area and i have a ac pressure switch fault now. 
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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2015, 02:55:59 PM »
Spoke to my chap, he said straight away expansion valve, said you changed it assuming it's a new one.
There's no other valves between the front and rear just T connectors where the two circuits meet just to the left of the front expansion valve.
He said the larger pipe should be cold and the small one warm.
He did say apart from changing the expansion valves the only other similar symptoms like yours was when to much oil was added and had flooded the rear evaporator.
He also said if it was overfilled neither would work properly.
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
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Re: air con recharge END OF STORY !
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2015, 04:24:25 PM »
CAN YOU HEAR ME SCREAM !!!!!!!!   when i traced the pipes before  i followed them under the car to the front but i never opened the bonnet to see where they joined the system

HERE THEY ARE ………….CUT OFF     SO in the cars history someone has done something   who knows     we never will know. the tee pieces are very proffessionly tapped off with those big rusty coloured nut things you can see and the rear supply pipes are just sat there. 

so   end of story    MANY MANY THANKS to all contributors   i shall now go drink cider to excess after the time i have spent removing the rear panel 4 times.  changing the valve and regass.   now of course  there is 1050g of gas in a system that needs 700,   so back to the garage before any damage done to other components.  ???
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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2015, 05:28:07 PM »
Feel for you mate, this is one of the problems when diagnosing blind, we can only assume the car is as standard and not had some bodge job done throwing us off.
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2015, 06:22:09 PM »
just one of those things,   if i had followed the pipes all the way to the engine bay rather than just under the gearbox  i would have seen it before i started having fun changing valves and regassing

after the failure i thought i will check further into it, so after removing the battery cover, there were the guilty pipes for all to see.

we live and learn. i shall be happy with just the front.
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Offline insanitybeard

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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2015, 06:37:34 PM »
What a nightmare, I can't imagine why anybody would do that unless there was a leak from the rear air con system somewhere and they just couldn't be arsed to sort it. Have the tees just been disconnected and plugged so that you could reconnect them if you wanted or have pipes etc been cut making repairs impossible?
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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2015, 08:37:57 PM »
well did make me wonder , looked on the vw parts and the pipes from the tee are not too long and joined just under the car , but i think i will not open a new can of worms !
from looking at the parts pic it seems the take off pipes have some kind of screw thread nut on to make the join,   i don know if whats on the pipe in the photo is the remains of the original joint that somehow has been bolted up to make it gas tight
if indeed they had a leak in the past and have had them cut and sealed to repair it,  then its pretty cheap way i suppose, if i got new pipes and joined them i think there will be a leak somewhere.   they are very long pipes right to the rear evap.  not worth th effort i don't think.
the pipes have been cut about 4 inches under the tees , you can just see them together in the photo   also to get in there you need hands like a bendy child its so far down and back.
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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2015, 08:08:53 PM »
wifes says,   why didn't you contact the previous owner before you started all the messing around

after i beat her with a stick,  i wrote to the chap on the log book,   next day he kindly called me and said,  oh yes.  the rear section got a leak in the long pipe rubber section and was a fortune to repair so we had it sealed off.

Ahhhhhhhh  :'( :-[
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Re: air con recharge
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2015, 09:54:00 PM »
suk eggs granny.

still at least now youve found the problem and sorted it. ;)
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