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Author Topic: ALHAMBRA V6 2003 NON STARTER  (Read 3154 times)

Offline stred

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ALHAMBRA V6 2003 NON STARTER
« on: November 06, 2016, 11:39:19 AM »
hi guys,
 
sadly my beloved alhambra is poorly, for the last few weeks the voltage gauge has been reading only 12.5v at idle but  shoots up to normal once revved, so i hoped and assumed it was the battery and i thought id change it this weekend.
 
anyway this morning, very cold as it was, i went outside to start the car to go to work, only to find that it sounded like it would start but then didnt and would only spin over very fast with the occasional splutter like it would start, it sounds like no compression or the cam chain has snapped.
 
anyway i took the battery off hoping and praying it was that and put it on charge and got a lift to work, got home refitted battery and of course its the same. if i take the oil cap off i can see what appears to be a cam chain and it appears to be moving as expected, although i suspect there is another for the other bank but i don't know enough about these engines.
 
any ideas guys/girls, really not sure what else to try really.
 
thanks
scott

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: ALHAMBRA V6 2003 NON STARTER
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2016, 11:49:17 AM »
If it's spinning fast like compression or chain issue best to get it timed up manually to check before going any further.

By sounds of it you have 2 problems low charge at idle and now the non running.

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: ALHAMBRA V6 2003 NON STARTER
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2016, 12:41:33 PM »
I think there is only a single camchain on the VR6 lump as both cylinder banks are contained within the same engine block. You could see if any fault codes have been stored, if not then as above make sure it's not a timing issue related to the camchain (I have read similar tales regarding the V6) and check you've got fuel, spark and if necessary carry out a compression test.
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline stred

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Re: ALHAMBRA V6 2003 NON STARTER
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2016, 12:49:18 PM »
I think there is only a single camchain on the VR6 lump as both cylinder banks are contained within the same engine block. You could see if any fault codes have been stored, if not then as above make sure it's not a timing issue related to the camchain (I have read similar tales regarding the V6) and check you've got fuel, spark and if necessary carry out a compression test.

Thanks for the replies gents,

i done a scan this morning there is a battery voltage code (to be expected) and something about evap, but nothing i feel is conclusive to non starting.

over the last month, me and my partner have both commented on seperate occasions we thought it wasnt as lively as it once was, we have owned it since march 2014, the last service in july, i commented to the garage it felt down on power and he done a scan and said nothing to report.

how would you suggest i check the timing?

thanks
scott

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: ALHAMBRA V6 2003 NON STARTER
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2016, 01:06:56 PM »
The timing chain cover or at least the rocker cover would have to come off to check the timing I would think, which is fairly involved. If you are still able to witness the camchain moving and the vehicle still cranks over OK I would assume it hasn't snapped, therefore before going that far, I would try turning the engine over by hand using the crankshaft pulley firstly, if it turns over OK without jamming or nasty noises you could try a compression test. Also, you need to be sure the ignition and fuel systems are working, though if you had an ignition system fault I would have expected a code to be stored. How many miles has the vehicle done?
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: ALHAMBRA V6 2003 NON STARTER
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2016, 01:09:30 PM »
You need cam covers off to line the cams up and use the reference mark on crank pulley.
See this thread there is a guide on how to do it

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1264409-DIY-Replacing-timing-chains-tensioners-and-guides-on-a-12v-VR6%5C#/topics/1264409?_k=6igkl4

Offline stred

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Re: ALHAMBRA V6 2003 NON STARTER
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2016, 01:22:49 PM »
You need cam covers off to line the cams up and use the reference mark on crank pulley.
See this thread there is a guide on how to do it

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1264409-DIY-Replacing-timing-chains-tensioners-and-guides-on-a-12v-VR6%5C#/topics/1264409?_k=6igkl4

Thanks for that, the oil filler cap is on the passenger side of the engine through which i can see the chain moving, from that guide it appears the cam chain is on the drivers side in common with cambelt engines.. unless i'm mistaken.

the car has done about 130k miles and to be honest has been super reliable except a drive shaft issue earlier this year which cost us over 800 but we had no problems spending the money considering how good the car has been, typcial for it to go wrong when the weather has turned!

thanks
scott

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: ALHAMBRA V6 2003 NON STARTER
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2016, 02:04:42 PM »
I'm not very familiar with the VR6 lump as fitted to the Mk2 but as you say, the oil filler cap is at the opposite end of the engine to the chain drive. That being the case, I don't understand how any chain would be visible through the filler cap. Or did you mean you can see a camshaft rotating?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 03:10:33 PM by insanitybeard »
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline stred

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Re: ALHAMBRA V6 2003 NON STARTER
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2016, 02:37:26 PM »
jut thought id film the chain inside the oil filler and the car started as you can tell from the video

switched it off and it requires gas to start (never has done, literally key in turn and its running) but sounds fine none the less, i would assume maybe a sensor ? but again i scanned the car straight after recording the video and still no codes logged.


https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bw7TsLHnS6dQVlFVbzdiUlZUZkE

Offline mike wilson

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Re: ALHAMBRA V6 2003 NON STARTER
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2016, 02:41:52 PM »
I'm not very familiar with the VR6 lump but as you say, the oil filler cap is at the opposite end of the engine to the chain drive. That being the case, I don't understand how any chain would be viable through the filler cap. Or did you mean you can see a camshaft rotating?

The pictures in the above link show the opposite.

-https://www.fordmpv.com/smf2/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.agthompsonfamily.com%2Fvw%2FTimingChain2.jpg&hash=8db1be7af74be9b7f558c98ba37d3cef

-https://www.fordmpv.com/smf2/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.agthompsonfamily.com%2Fvw%2FTimingChain3.jpg&hash=4c8497021170bcd9eaedcf31414554ed

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: ALHAMBRA V6 2003 NON STARTER
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2016, 02:53:44 PM »
Whatever the VR6 lump in those pictures is fitted to, it's not a unit fitted to the Mk2 Sharan/ Alhambra/ Galaxy chassis. Parts diagram shows oil filler at the opposite end to the timing gear bulge. Furthermore, I can't even see the spark plug holes in that rocker cover so it must be an earlier/ different implementation of the VR6 unit.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 03:11:48 PM by insanitybeard »
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: ALHAMBRA V6 2003 NON STARTER
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2016, 03:00:48 PM »
I assume it's a golf engine but essentially the same lump just different cam covers I would think?

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: ALHAMBRA V6 2003 NON STARTER
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2016, 03:04:30 PM »
Also, that's only a 12 valve unit, the Mk2 Galaxies were 24 valve.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 03:13:18 PM by insanitybeard »
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline stred

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Re: ALHAMBRA V6 2003 NON STARTER
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2016, 03:08:54 PM »
mkIV jetta/golf according to the link... on my car its definately the cam chain and its in the same position as the image posted previously from the link.

the other half has gone in the car to do a quick shop, so assuming she returns with the car! i'll perform a scan.

thanks 

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: ALHAMBRA V6 2003 NON STARTER
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2016, 03:20:57 PM »
Sorry, I still don't understand..... you said earlier that the camchain was on the driver's side end of the engine, which I would expect. However, if the chain is visible through the oil filler cap and the oil filler is at the passenger side end of the engine, then something doesn't make sense?
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: ALHAMBRA V6 2003 NON STARTER
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2016, 07:23:47 PM »
Ok, having looked in a bit more detail at the parts diagrams and the previously linked article it looks like the VR6 unit actually has the timing gear and chain at the gearbox end (i.e, the opposite end to the alternator drive belt), this is an unfamiliar concept to me as all engines I've worked on and seen/ inspected up until now have had their camshaft drive at the non-gearbox end. This means that you would indeed see the upper camchain through the oil filler hole- I've learned something today!

So, if you can observe the chain moving when cranking the engine, it's at least not snapped. Note that the linked article mentions that camchain issues are usually preceded by a rattling 'marbles in a can' type noise at idle, have you noticed anything like that leading up to now? I think the next step would be to remove the rocker cover and check that the cam timing is still correct and that the camchain is still under a decent amount of tension. If all is well, next check that the fuel and ignition systems are working correctly, followed by a compression test. All of this is assuming there isn't a simpler explanation, like an immobiliser issue or something like that. Not sure if the 2.8 petrol suffers with relay 30 issues, perhaps somebody else can confirm that, but if it does I can't remember if the engine would still crank if it was playing up.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 07:36:19 PM by insanitybeard »
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline stred

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Re: ALHAMBRA V6 2003 NON STARTER
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2016, 07:32:04 PM »
Ok, having looked in a bit more detail at the parts diagrams and the previously linked article it looks ike the VR6 unit actually has the timing gear and chain at the gearbox end (i.e, the opposite end to the alternator drive belt), this is an unfamiliar concept to me as all engines I've worked on and seen/ inspected up until now had their camshaft drive at the non- gearbox end. This means that you would indeed see the upper camchain through the oil filler hole- I've learned something today!

So, if you can observe the chain moving when cranking the engine, it's at least not snapped. Note that the linked article mentions that camchain issues are usually preceded by a rattling 'marbles in a can' type noise at idle, have you noticed anything like that leading up to now? I think the next step would be to remove the rocker cover and check that the cam timing is still correct and that the camchain is still under a decent amount of tension. If all is well, next check that the fuel and ignition systems are working correctly, followed by a compression test. All of this is assuming there isn't a simpler explanation, like an immobiliser issue or something like that. Not sure if the 2.8 petrol suffers with relay 30 issues, perhaps somebody else can confirm that, but if it does I can't remember if the engine would still crank if it was playing up.

Much like myself, i find the concept of the timing gear being at anything other than the opposite end to the gearbox very strange.

anyway i posted a video in a previous post detailing the cam chain and the fact the engine was now running, although still a mystery why it was very hard to start.

thanks
scott

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: ALHAMBRA V6 2003 NON STARTER
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2016, 07:41:11 PM »
Well if you've got it running again it's obviously got fuel and the ignition system is working, is it running smoothly and performing ok? No rattles or anything like that?
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

 

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