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Author Topic: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running  (Read 1218 times)

Offline JR Watchet

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Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« on: February 09, 2019, 12:50:11 PM »
I have 2 Galaxys and just about to buy a 3rd 2005 TDI model.   On one as usual the Aux heater had stopped working and important as used in Easter Europe so need the heat input! I have VCDs and showed memory errors and on removing unit was so corroded i didn't bother to dismantle (yet)   Managed to find a brand new one in the stores of a small dealer and haggled the price as had been there for years..... Fitted and now runs.

However, now does not seem to stop.  I have yet to test the temperature sensors with VCDS but nothing else in the vehicle is showing wrong readings.  Outside temperature during testing was 7 degrees, so unit powered up OK. Did a long run and water temperature showed "normal" for 15 minutes but when stopped I could
still hear something running around the heater - sounded more like the fan than the exhaust.

I am not sure from all the posts the EXACT sequence of operation and this is what I am looking for.  As it has not worked for a year I can not remember how it used to run!!!

When the engine temperature is normal, but outside temperature low, should it shut down or keep going?

Thanks

John
West Somerset

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2019, 01:47:21 PM »
It should switch off if the coolant is up to temperature,the gauge on dash can show normal but coolant temp can be anything between 80 and 100 degrees. What you need to do is check on vcds what engine temp is exactly and what temp the aux heater temp sensors are reading.

Offline JR Watchet

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2019, 02:23:01 PM »
OK
Will check later today
John

Offline daddyfixit

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2019, 06:36:16 PM »
think its 90c before it switches off...assuming outside temp is over 10c as well.

Offline Chrispb

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2019, 06:38:09 PM »
When car is up to temperature, 90 on the gauge and providing you haven't got the cars blower fans on maximum and max temperature the booster heater will go from maximum speed to low power mode if the coolant maintains normal temperature at 90 deg, only then does the booster shut off completely.

If the temperature starts falling the booster will come back up to full power and do the cycle again, you can do a check to see if it will shut off by turning your heater blowers and aircon off.
This will shorten the time the booster is running as the engine coolant will not be cooled down by the operation of the heater blowers.
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspšcher booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

With VCDS lite (full version) need a code clearing or want to scan for faults in the north kent area, PM me.
All for a pint of Strongbow.

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Offline JR Watchet

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2019, 02:19:39 PM »
Thanks all for help so far.  Run all the tests and so far have 2 x overheat faults on aux heater, but cleared them and will see - maybe a little air.

VCDS shows pump and blower on. What I assume are inlet and outlet temperatures when engine is running and up to temperature show 74.5 degrees and move up/down a couple of degrees   Internal temp shows up to 200 degrees on aux heater.    Therefore checked engine module 01 and see that maximum temperature showing in the blocks seems to be 85 degrees - never above with engine in sheltered location and stationary.   At outside temp displayed on dash at 10.5 still running but can not find any VCDS reading for this outside air sensor under wipers!   Worrse come to worse I can always fit a switch for now!!!   

Have ordered a new thermostat as spec says it should not open until 88 degrees and I guess sensor is correct as shows 82-85 and aux heater shows 74-76.  Asa ps Rear heater unit is not used as vehicle used as a van and always switched off on the controller (dash).

Any other tips to check and does anyone know which module/data block shows outside temp sensor?

many thanks
John

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2019, 05:09:12 PM »
The temp switch is just a switch that closes below 10 degrees there is no feedback to control units other than to command an on signal when it is cold outside. I did away with mine and fitted a switch in dash.

Sounds like itís running normally to me and if you give it a good run and get temp up to 90 it will no doubt switch off,getting engine up to 90 stationary is virtually impossible with a PD engine as they produce very little waste heat.
Try giving a run on motorway so it gets up to temp and see if heater turns off then.

Offline JR Watchet

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2019, 06:23:31 PM »
Tried it on 30 min run and temps stayed that low with outside temp of 10 degrees
Today dash emp (measured from under bumber I think) showed 11 degrees but aux still running so put a hairdryer into top airvent by wipers
and after a few minutes shut the aux heater down so that sensor is working but maybe at a slightly higher temp than 10 degrees.  Can't find
the part number on main dealers parts list so doing more checking - if not too expensive will replace that at same time as rad thermostat.

Great fun. Need to get right as taking to Czech in 2 weeks and can be -15 there in the winter!!!!

BUT, hopefully buying a 3rd 2005 diesel tomorrow with a genuine 67k on the clock.  Good price too. Needed as my petrol one (2001) has done
176,000 miles and worn out - doesn't help I live right next to the sea for corrosion!

PS. Started dismantling old heater to see what condition it was in but so corroded had to drill out 4 bolts holding on the cover and drill the heads
off 2 bolts holding the two halves together - still can not separate because of corrosion so will have to set up in workshop and pillar drill out one
of the long bolts......all good fun!

Thanks for everyon's help - will report back!

Offline JR Watchet

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2019, 12:18:46 AM »
OK,
The saga goes on!   More help please!

Having replaced the Aux heater still errors as above, so now replaced thermostat in coolant system and water runs up to nearly 90 instead of 84 and the aux heater shuts down as it should when water up to temp.

However, with outside temp of 13.5 degrees the heater still fires up when engine starts - even though should not operate over about 10 degrees.

I have taken the panels off around the wiper assembly BUT THERE IS NO TEMP SENSOR THERE!   Only items are 2 x heated water jets (which I didn't know were there) and the horn plus plug to wipers.  Nowt else.  I was going to take up suggestion of dash switch to turn off and on, but without a sensor I am going to find this difficult!

This is a 2006 Ford Galaxy, not Sharon.    Please, can anyone tell me WHERE the outside sensor is - if indeed there is one fitted.  On old heater never fired up on "warm" days so something amiss here.   If no one knows where sensor is, any clues as to which fuse supplies the sensor so I can switch there?

Sorry to keep on but spent ages on this and as an electronic engineer should not be this hard to fix......

Many thanks in advance


p.s.  Have VCDS with hex module in WEST SOMERSET if any use to anyone

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2019, 07:39:56 AM »
It is on a plastic clip that is secured on to the wiper arm assembly on the near side, once bulk head extension panel is off it should be visible. Just wondering if someone has chopped in to wiring loom and linked the wires out?
The washer heaters are on the scuttle panel aux heat switch is not on that you need to remove the other panel to see if itís fitted.

Offline JR Watchet

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2019, 12:24:04 PM »
Thanks again

had car from new.  Couldn't see of feel any sensor there but was unable to remove panels yesterday - more problems - both wiper arms are corroded onto the the wiper assembly, so need a boit of time to free these up - seems can't buy penetrating oil these days anywhere around here and do not havea puller.  Will make something up tomorrow to try and release the corroded thread - luckilly the nuts come off fine and thread visible is OK - must be careful though as need car to go to Czech Republic next week so mustn't mreak anything!     The underpanel would not come out without the wiper plate removed, even with water bottle released.

IF I do not manage to bypass it, does anyone know the part number of the sensor?  My Ford main dealer can not find it on their computer


Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2019, 01:59:40 PM »
You can take extension panel out without disturbing wipers, 3 10mm bolts. 1 each side and 1 in middle then it jiggles out.

Offline JR Watchet

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2019, 02:24:51 PM »
Ta!
Tied but kept getting stuck on water bottle and air filter other end - did not want to damage anything!    Will have another go tomorrow and ordered online a couple of wiper pullers just in case - will always be useful - and found penetrating oil on Amazon, so lets hope all turns up tomorrow.     need to be able to remove wipers anyway and better now than wait another year and they be worse!

Wonderful cars, but.................

Switch must be there somewhere so as I just used hairdryer through vents and switched off!   Not sure how hot though!

Let's hope the "new" one I added to collection this week doesn't have too many issues - leaking sump and small oil leak somehwere at back of engine - will have to reseal sump and steam clean to see what is going on.

Thanks again for info.

As an extra, where abouts did you run cable through bulkhead to the inside?

john

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2019, 04:04:22 PM »
The panel can be fiddly to get out,I took expansion bottle bolts out and pulled it off bracket and dropped down slightly to give extra space. Itís then a case of pulling towards you slightly to release from tabs and then swing upwards and out towards drivers side.

I ran my wires through a grommet that enters behind glovebox if I remember correctly,I used a switch with an led on so had to run an earth from a stud behind dash also.

Offline JR Watchet

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2019, 09:18:56 PM »
Hi.  HELP!!!!!!

Removed the sensor and heater still runs at start up.  As per drawing attached, should not!!! (tested sensor and works oK, open circuiting at about 11 degress but does not turn off the heater!   

Friendly dealer has submitted a technical claim on Ford, but not very hopeful of sensible reply!

Any more clues, of shall i just wire an extra relay instead of the main power 5A fuse....guess that will have to be theway to go......ANY more clues gratefully accepted!


Also, found much more major problem.....the box section cross member under the wiper panel that connects to the 2 suspension mounts is a little distressed!   2/3rd has rusted away in one place (see pic) and going to be a major problem.   Spoken to local bodyshop and so difficult to get to they recommend scarpping car!  Looks like when better weather will have to strip down the right hand side including abs etc and hope there is enough room to weld a strengthening piece in.......never ends but had since new and in very good condition otherwise - seems water leaked under wiper panel, dripped into top of suspension mount and ran down into box section - been like it a while though......

John* prepareEmbeddedSVG.pdf (224.59 kB - downloaded 73 times.)

Offline JR Watchet

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2019, 09:43:49 PM »
Picture of damage6523-0

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2019, 11:46:49 PM »
Sounds like more pressing issues than the aux heater with the welding thatís required. However if I was you I would be unplugging the temp switch and checking for feed on the black wire and if it has 12 bolts tracing it back.

Apologies not read back through thread but have you changed boost heater on it? Also whatís condition of wiring to the heater is plug under floor corroded etc?

Offline JR Watchet

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2019, 12:00:12 AM »
Brand new heater from Ford dealer.   

Old heater worked normally before it packed up with memory errors, used to cut out at 10 degrees ambient as should do.   Just replaced heater
like for like so the quest goes on.    I did not check for 12 volts on the lead, just the sensor was cycled hot and cold.   I also shorted out the sensor plug
as didn't have drawing at that time in case was normally open - but not that.

Very odd and the rust is worrying....do not want to lose a good running car for that - but seems ok for next 9 months in a dry Czech Republic - covered everything
in a thick grease for ongoing protection and sealed a few leaks from wiper cover.

Sadly no time to measure voltage on plug as all put back together and leave at the weekend

john


Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2019, 01:05:08 AM »
When you do get chance check for feed at that wire,not beyond the realms of possibility you have a duff heater mind. If the wiring checks out 0v above 10 degrees that proves car side.
Find it hard to believe old heater cut out when ambient temp higher but new doesnít,that suggests to me the heater controller is at fault.

The welding looks bit of a pig to do but with a bit of a strip down not impossible if rest of car ok then I would say worth getting it done.

Offline JR Watchet

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2019, 12:54:24 AM »
Hi all who have offered help!

Finally after many hours, at the bottom of it as they say!

After many experiments when control input did nothing, puled fuses and stopped ok (so did other things) so that
was no good.  Thought of pullling the glo-plug fuse so it locked out, but seemed a silly way of doing it

Turned out it was the B&**£!y dealer who sold me the WRONG version of the heater!   Lots of 'phone calls about
it now they have to give me the money back for wrong heater - only problem is can not remove it until find the right one.

What a farce!  Will pull the connector tomorrow and that will stop it all.   Seems the heater i was sold is a "turbo" version that
runs all the time until coolant up to temperature before cutting out, whatever the outside temp.

Thanks for help,
Will update when resolved - if ever!

John


Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2019, 11:01:28 PM »
You can link the coolant pipes out and remove heater until you get correct one. If I remember correctly a small section of 22mm copper pipe will do it.

Offline Chrispb

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2019, 04:06:53 AM »
John

Out of interest what model heater did you have originally and what did they supply you.

EG. D5WZ D5ZF
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspšcher booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

With VCDS lite (full version) need a code clearing or want to scan for faults in the north kent area, PM me.
All for a pint of Strongbow.

The FordMPV.com Forum - The free forum for questions and answers relating to the Ford Galaxy, S-Max and C-Max

Offline JR Watchet

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2019, 09:28:18 PM »
Hi

D5W in stead of D5F if I remember right

Dealer will supply correct one and take old one back in 3-4 weeks

What a waste of time - but educational

Thanks all for your help

John

Offline JR Watchet

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2019, 10:32:43 PM »
Long time no reply - but - if it can be broadcast I have found UK suppliers of BRAND NEW AUX HEATERS FROM THE FACTORY
£395 in vat and delivery!!!!  D5Z-F in box!!

www.redmman.com based in London

Great service from them as well.

Please pass on the info if anyone else needs help

John

p.s.  Never did get one from other dealer so demanding money back

Offline SirDavidAlhambra

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Re: Aux heater running conditions - when does it stop running
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2019, 07:46:29 AM »
Those aux heaters seem to be nothing but trouble. Iíve yet to see an Alhambra which has a working aux heater
I drive a Seat Alhambra 1.9Tdi which has 115bhp and an automatic gearbox.

I am happy to help you with all your questions. I am not a qualified mechanic but seem to be better at fixing my car than even the most experienced garages.

I have lots of friends here and very much enjoy talking with you all.

Always remember, a motor car is a serious tool and should be treated with respect. Put your safety first, always.

 

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