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Author Topic: Auxillary Heater  (Read 12655 times)

Offline rob9langham

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Auxillary Heater
« on: January 26, 2015, 02:51:46 PM »
I have a Galaxy 2005 1.9TDI 130ps. The glow plug was replaced 3 winters ago. The heater worked for the first winter and failed half way through the second (last year). I decided to fixed this myself for this winter.

Bought a Vgate Scan VS450 for (VW/AUDI) as I have a small VW run-about and the Galaxy TDI is virtually a VW Sharan under the skin.

I assume the glow plug is OK as it is fairly new. The ambient temperature sensor I can hear it humming when the ignition is switched on.
Scanning sector 18 - auxiliary heater flagged : Dosing/metering pump (V54). “static-shot short circuit to earth”.  The glow plug static short also appears occasionally but clears after resetting the codes. ( ECU default - error shows after 3 failed attempts to fire heater ).

Today I got under the car and loosened the rubber mounting clamp to check the wiring and to note the part number of the pump. I tested the pump by attaching a 12v battery to the terminals. There was a clicking noise every time I made a circuit. -  Is this what I should hear from a working pump?

What does "short to earth mean", is this related to some component in the system not talking to another? Unfortunately, it was too cold and cramp under the car to remove fuel line to check flow. Do you think there's a blockage from the fuel tank to the filter?

Rob


Offline insanitybeard

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2015, 06:04:04 PM »
Howdy!

On a 2005 plate you're likely to have the later D5Z-F model heater, to my knowledge these have ceramic glow plugs which are more reliable than the earlier type glow plugs, however, the D5Z-F heaters alas are prone to ECU failure, and quite often when they do wrong glow plug open/short circuit fault codes come up. Not sure about the dosing pump fault code, but my D5Z-F heater also packed up with glow plug short/open circuit fault codes- there have been numerous threads on this site regarding this issue, I started my own for this very reason here. Not saying this is definitely the fault with yours but by all accounts this model of heater is famous for it.
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline stuiescenic

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2015, 06:06:18 PM »
If yours is a D5Z-F and you are getting short to earth its most probably the ECU on the top of the heater has gone faulty. This is a common fault with these. If its the older type i am not sure about these types!
As for the fuel pump it sounds like its working correctly though.

Stuart

Offline rob9langham

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2015, 06:43:41 PM »
The product number on the dosing pump is 20.1645.00.00. I have cross reference this on the EberspacherParts.com site which identifies my heater as B5W. I have not removed the heater so I can't confirm the heater type on the manufacturer's plate.

ECU sounds expensive. How did you guys resolve it?

Rob


Offline insanitybeard

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2015, 07:03:50 PM »
In my case, I'm afraid I still haven't resolved it! The best price I can find for a new ECU is from Germany at about £180. I've heard a couple of tales of people trying to repair their existing one but be warned- it'll be a b@%$£rd of a job- I got as far as removing my heater from the vehicle for inspection, and I removed the ECU from the heater (you're likely to shear some screws in pursuit of this task), I tried in a semi serious fashion to de-pot it but as I didn't have the benefit of hindsight caused some damage and left it at that.

As for the applicable list of heaters that dosing pump is listed for, the D5Z-F won't show on that site as 'officially' the D5Z-F was an automotive O.E fitment only, therefore eberspacher won't support it directly, you have to go through the vehicle dealer, even though in reality many of the parts are exactly the same as the heater models they do support.
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline rob9langham

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2015, 02:58:28 PM »
Paul,

I have spent a year reading about this booster heater on the web. It seems for such a simple device that it’s hard to diagnose which component has failed.

Before I get worried about the ECU and dismantling the booster unit, I will work on the accessible components first. Although the temperature sensor can be heard making a humming noise and stops after a few minutes, it doesn't mean the sensor is working properly at -10C. Do you think I could by-pass the sensor by unplugging it and joining the two ends together and see if it can fool the ECU?

I looked at the ECU info on my scanner today , the type is B/D5W. Is the long number the ECU ? see pic.

Rob

Offline Chrispb

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2015, 03:44:56 PM »
Thats the part number for the complete heater unit D5Z-F
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspächer booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

With VCDS lite (full version) need a code clearing or want to scan for faults in the north kent area, PM me.
All for a pint of Strongbow.

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Offline barlidge

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2015, 04:21:24 PM »
Although the temperature sensor can be heard making a humming noise and stops after a few minutes, it doesn't mean the sensor is working properly at -10C. Do you think I could by-pass the sensor by unplugging it and joining the two ends together and see if it can fool the ECU?

The temp sensor located on the wiper mechanism doesn't hum, it is simply a thermal switch,   Many people (myself included) have bypassed it with a simple on/off switch located inside the car to have more control over the heater,  you can also use VCDS and look at the measuring blocks to see if the sensor is in the open/closed position.

Offline rob9langham

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2015, 05:07:12 PM »
Bruce,

Quote
have bypassed it with a simple on/off switch located inside the car to have more control over the heater

So the ON/OFF switch in the car is really a summer/winter switch ... mmm interesting idea. 

My scanner is not enhanced with measuring blocks so I have no way of knowing the function of the sensors.
Do you think those £10 OBD2 wifi/bluetooth devices show info like measuring blocks?

Rob


Offline barlidge

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2015, 05:45:00 PM »
I originally fitted my switch so I could have it permanently switched on to assist in fault finding.  Another time it is useful is to be able to switch it off when doing short stop/starts where the aux heater would be switched on and off without getting up to temperature which is not good for it either.

Not sure about the wireless obd readers but I believe there is a section on sub £10 usb cables in the reference library.

Offline Mirez

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2015, 05:56:35 PM »
IMO they should all have come with a switch, remove the automatic side of it with a simple on switch!

I doubt very much that cable will work, VCDS is much more then a fault code reader.
03 Ford Galaxy 1.9 TDI 115 Ghia in Spruce Green Metallic
With cream leather interior, Full Bodykit, Remapped at 145bhp, Lowered on 18's
14 VW Tiguan 2.0 TDI 177 AWD R-Line in Deep Black Pearl
With panoramic sunroof, bi-xenon headlights remapped at 205bhp.
08 Ford Transit 2.2 TDI 115 in Frozen White
With retrofitted everything except another slidey door! :)

VCDS HEX/CAN - Scans/Coding done in Wiltshire in exchange for winegums! :)

Offline SilverBeast

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2015, 09:26:16 PM »
Don't bother with the Bluetooth/Wifi readers, get a USB VCDS/VAG-COM cable from ebay and use it with a laptop, you'll get a lot of the information you need from VCDS-LITE.

Offline rob9langham

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2015, 01:04:57 AM »
It was cold enough 4.5C today, so took the bulkhead tray off and tried to test the pump and temperature sensor.
Does the water pump ( is this it? - see picture )make or noise or vibrate?
Pump didn't seem to do any thing. Removed the temp sensor socket and join the ends - nothing. The only noise I heard was the auxillary fan or pump running on after I switch off.
 It's getting warmer now so I'm running out of time to sort this out. Next job is to get a replacement dowser pump from eBay £20.

Rob

Offline Chrispb

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2015, 03:47:07 AM »
First check fuses 3 & 12

The auxiliary water pump the one in your picture should run all the time the engine is running, on your 130ps it will stop when you switch off engine only the 115 engine runs on for 3 minutes after switch off.
You may not hear yours with the engine running but you should feel it vibrate.

Can you be more precise as to what you can hear running when switching off

Getting a lead to connect your laptop and use VCDS is a good tool to have at less than £10

The D5Z-F does tend to give out false info when the ECU goes bad, it usually blames every other component but not itself, if your getting ticking from the dosing pump when repeatedly touching 12V to it then its working.
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspächer booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

With VCDS lite (full version) need a code clearing or want to scan for faults in the north kent area, PM me.
All for a pint of Strongbow.

The FordMPV.com Forum - The free forum for questions and answers relating to the Ford Galaxy, S-Max and C-Max

Offline rob9langham

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2015, 02:25:36 PM »
Chrispb,

Quote
The auxiliary water pump the one in your picture should run all the time the engine is running, on your 130ps it will stop when you switch off engine only the 115 engine runs on for 3 minutes after switch off.
You may not hear yours with the engine running but you should feel it vibrate.

Can you be more precise as to what you can hear running when switching off
   

When the outside temperature reached 4.5C, I ran the car and held the pump in the engine bay. I couldn't feel anything. When I switched off the engine I can hear an external humming noise coming from the nearside rear, it seems from under the vechicle - the aux heater I presume. This lasted a few minutes and stopped.


The noise was the same when the heater was working as I parked up in the garage on a cold day, the noise was a little louder and I could smell diesel, after a few minutes it stopped. My engine is a 130 and it did run on.

I have a hand held VCDS that doesn't give full detailed functionallity of components.
It is pointing to the dowser pump, but as you said, it could be a red herring.
I don't have a laptop but an iPad, so I will get a Mac version WiFi device for the same price.

Do you think it might be the brushed that has packed up? Buying a second hand pump may be risky getting an exact replacement and it may not work. There is someone on eBay selling brushes that are the correct size and the wires are attached to the back.


Rob


Offline Chrispb

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2015, 02:57:32 PM »
From what your describing it sounds like your heater is working but a dodgy coolant pump will cause the heater to keep shutting down because it's overheating due to insufficient coolant flow.
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspächer booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

With VCDS lite (full version) need a code clearing or want to scan for faults in the north kent area, PM me.
All for a pint of Strongbow.

The FordMPV.com Forum - The free forum for questions and answers relating to the Ford Galaxy, S-Max and C-Max

Offline rob9langham

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2015, 03:14:41 PM »
Chrispb,

Do you think I can replace the bushes?

Have you any tips on getting it off - it is in such a cramp place. Apart from the bulkhead tray ( I am good at getting it off now) is there anything else I could remove to make life easier?


Rob

Offline Chrispb

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2015, 03:23:27 PM »
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspächer booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

With VCDS lite (full version) need a code clearing or want to scan for faults in the north kent area, PM me.
All for a pint of Strongbow.

The FordMPV.com Forum - The free forum for questions and answers relating to the Ford Galaxy, S-Max and C-Max

Offline rob9langham

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2015, 03:34:44 PM »
I mean brushes! :-\ Thanks guys for pointing to loads of reference info on the site!

Rob

Offline SilverBeast

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2015, 08:53:48 PM »
To be absolutely sure on the pump.
(i) Turn on ignition but don't start car.
(ii) You should here the pump running. This is easier from outside car with bonnet up. On the climate control turn both front and rear fans right down so they say Off and that will stop the fan noise just behind pump in heating system to make it easier to hear.
(iii) You can also grab pump and feel the vibration from it running if it works (you can do this with the engine running just be careful!). Mine kicked into life when I did this, probably because it moved the brushes enough to contact, but it was intermittent and stopped again.

I guesstimate (from Forums and a sample of 1 vehicle - the one in the second link above) that if the vehicle has done 80k plus miles without the brushes/pump being replaced then they will need doing imminently or have already failed!  I would do the brushes and get the pump working before you try and do anything else with the auxillary heater.  I would even go so far as to disable the heater until they are sorted.  The heater control PCB sits on top of the unit on this model and I suspect the controller failures - which seem more common on this model - are due to it heating up to max and being shut down by an overheat on the chamber temperature as the water isn't circulating fast enough to take the heat out of the unit. This cycle repeats and I suspect the PCB gets hotter increasing likelihood of failure.  Mine failed after fixing the pump - not sure it ever worked properly for long - and I eventually replaced the whole heater.  I'll take the controller PCB off the old one if I ever get chance and attempt to remove potting from PCB and check for dry/poor joints or failed components.

Offline SilverBeast

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2015, 08:56:58 PM »
By the way using cotton to hold the brushes while reassembling is a PITA and I was just about to give up when I managed to get it back together.  Others drilled holes in the plastic backplate and used cocktail sticks to hold them out of the way, or even put water on them and froze them in place then assembled really quickly!

Offline rob9langham

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2015, 10:49:05 PM »
SilverBeast,

Does the pump run all the time, and not reliant on temperature?

Sounds a tricky job. For £4.50 for a set of brushes off eBay I can't lose. Ford is charging £130 for new unit . Ebay about £20-£30 but the brushes may be as worn.
I hope it hasn't damaged the heater PCB.

Rob

Offline SilverBeast

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2015, 01:03:09 AM »
Yes. All the time the ignition is on. On some engine variants it will run on for a few minutes after the engine is turned off. On the TDI 130 and 150 it goes off with the ignition.

Offline rob9langham

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2015, 12:32:33 PM »
SilverBeast or anyone.

Got as far as the hoses to the pump ( inter cooler pipe off) Can't get good access to those clips, tried moles and open jaw grips.
I suspect there is a special tool for the job. I am stuck at the moment, will have to find something in the tool chest like a G clamp or some thing. Local auto shop said he did have one .. its gone...

Rob


Offline rob9langham

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2015, 12:34:46 PM »
Hi,

Is this it....... for inaccessible places.

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2015, 12:57:14 PM »
Yes you can use those, personally I bought a pair of this type which I've found to be very useful for numerous jobs, including removing the pipe clamps on the auxiliary coolant pump!
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 01:01:18 PM by insanitybeard »
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline rob9langham

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2015, 01:42:17 PM »
Managed to get it off with molegrip. Lots of fiddling. Slid the pump off the mounts with aid of WD40 so the pump could rotate in better position to access the clamps.  Thanks for your link with tool, looks like I will get one - for putting it back!

Back indoors to dismantle.

Rob

Offline bigdave982

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2015, 05:34:46 PM »
Personally i remove the pump on the mount8ng bracket complete

Offline rob9langham

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Re: Auxillary Heater - Update
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2015, 01:06:39 PM »
Update.  I decided to freeze the brushes because I think it is easier to ensure 100% engagement on the commutator. I felt the cotton method was a bit fiddly and you can't see what is going on inside.

After soldered the new brushes in the place, I kept them apart with a 15mm dowel (larger than commutator) then placed the cap in an egg cup and added a droplet of water on top of each brush and placed in freezer for 2 hours. The brushes were frozen in place when the dowel was removed. Assembling the 2 parts of the pump housing was effortless with the brushes clearing the commutator by a good margin  Wait until the brushes defrost and test the pump with a meter or 12v battery before crimping tags.  I am really surprise how well it works -  with a little patience, two hours to spare -  job done!

Fitted the pump (hose clips were a pain to fit without the correct tool).  Check fuse no18 and voltage to the connector plug, attach connector to pump, turn on ignition, feel pump is running, fire the engine --- instant heat- nice!  Can't wait for it to snow this weekend  ;)

It proves to start with the simple things first before ripping the system apart, this job only cost £5 to fix and a few hours, beats a new £140 unit form the dealer.

Rob




   

Offline barlidge

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2015, 04:50:00 PM »
That is exactly as I did mine  :)  I faffed around for a while with the cotton and really couldn't get it to work.

Offline dark_angel_tgv

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2015, 07:59:37 AM »
Can someone please tell me what messure the new brushes have to be?i did not removed the pump yet,i want to have everything prepared.and what kind of brushes showl i buy?are freezer motor brushes ok to use for replacement?tnx

Offline rob9langham

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2015, 10:47:23 AM »
I got mine from eBay.  see link below.
There is no pressure required, all you need to do is to separate the brushes by placing a round object between them; a dowel or tube about 16mm in diameter - slightly larger than the diameter of the commutator. You just need  a droplet of water on the brushes and freeze them for 2 hours. The brushes will stay put when you remove the spacer. You will have enough time to assemble the pump before it defrosts. I couldn't believe it was so easy.  Rob

 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aux-coolant-pump-carbon-brushes-5mmx5mmx10mm-suit-Galaxy-Sharan-Alhambra-pair-/141566046620?nma=true&si=nxkE4agsfwVQTPEYAR%252BP1jkPHvY%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Offline SilverBeast

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Re: Auxillary Heater
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2015, 04:37:27 PM »
The dimensions are in the second thread linked to by Chris on page two of this thread.

 

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