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Author Topic: Bloody sodding brakes on mK1  (Read 4019 times)

Offline bigjeeze

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Bloody sodding brakes on mK1
« on: April 07, 2014, 04:54:18 PM »
I am fast approaching the point where I will be donating my Mk1 to the Army for target practice.  It failed the MOT on a few bits which were easily rectified, and whilst doing a rack gaiter I decided to replace the front disc pads as I had some in stock. I clamped off the brake hoses, opened the bleed nipples to allow the piston to be pushed back prior to fitting the pads. All went well - fitted pads. Brake pedal solid. However, once I started the car the pedal begins to sink down - pumping brings it up but if you keep your foot on it - it continues to sink. Stop the engine and pedal fine.  I thought that maybe some air got into the system so I thought bleed the brakes - so I did  - No change. The I thought I'll do it again this time replacing the fluid. No different.

I have no leaks all for callipers are working fine - I have used at least 2 litres of brake fluid - bled it three times now yet the pedal still moves down.  I looked on the FAQ's nothing here - then on the "other " site - and I can find lots of posts on the subject but no one seems to have a cure. "It's normal " some say - IT ISN'T!! Because it wasn't like that before..

Now my Mk1 doesn't have ABS - so it's not air in the valve, There is no leakage for the M/C and the seals are not turned - so what the bloody hell is it!!!!.

I am getting fed up getting soaked as every single time I go out to bleed the brakes it starts raining! ( maybe I've upset him/her upstairs)

Any advice very gratefully received!!.

BJ

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Offline insanitybeard

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Re: Bloody sodding brakes on mK1
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2014, 05:12:46 PM »
So are you saying the soft pedal wasn't an issue before you renewed the discs and pads? Obviously the pedal will always travel further and feel softer with the engine running due to the assistance from the servo. Could it be the old flexible rubber brake hose issue where the rubber has weakened with age and the brake fluid pressure in the brake lines when applied is causing the rubber pipes to swell without actually applying any more brake force at the wheels?
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline bigjeeze

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Re: Bloody sodding brakes on mK1
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2014, 06:24:25 PM »
That's right - it was fine before.  The pedal is solid as a rock when the engine is off but slowly goes down to the floor almost when the engine is running. So that doesn't seem like the pipes could be faulty.  I'd happily change them if needed.

Any ideas?
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Offline insanitybeard

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Re: Bloody sodding brakes on mK1
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2014, 06:34:41 PM »
Not necessarily, the servo assistance increases the braking force (and pressure in the system) so if it was weak hoses the additional assistance from the servo with the engine running would exacerbate the situation.

Also, if the hoses are weak then clamping them when pushing the caliper pistons back could have contributed to the problem.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 06:36:23 PM by insanitybeard »
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline bigjeeze

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Re: Bloody sodding brakes on mK1
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2014, 06:46:54 PM »
OK that's possible - but why does the pedal travel down? The braking effect when driven is fine - bearing in mind new pads.
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Offline insanitybeard

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Re: Bloody sodding brakes on mK1
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2014, 07:03:07 PM »
The sinking pedal (if weak hoses are the cause) is the result of the volume of the system effectively increasing as the brake hose expands under internal pressure. Pumping the pedal forces more fluid into the system to fill this extra volume. In an ideal system there would be zero expansion of the pipes as you apply brake pressure, therefore all the fluid force is transmitted to the pistons in the calipers and the pedal should stay firm once you pressurize the system. In reality some of that effort will cause the brake lines to expand (obviously the rubber ones are flexible and therefore weaker than the rigid steel pipes), and if the rubber hoses are weak then this effect is exacerbated.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 07:03:44 PM by insanitybeard »
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline bigjeeze

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Re: Bloody sodding brakes on mK1
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2014, 09:35:36 PM »
OK I'm OK with that as far as it goes but this is a common issue and in no other case has changing the flexible pipes been put forward as a solution - even though it seems a very simple one.   I appreciate that the extra effort given by the servo might cause a swelling of the flexible pipe but in that case the amount of swelling would inevitably have an effect on the pipes, and of course the pedal would have to stop at some point before the pipes gave way - which doesn't appear to be the case.

I'll look at changing the pipes -I'm not convinced!!  But thank you for your input - it really is appreciated.
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Offline insanitybeard

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Re: Bloody sodding brakes on mK1
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2014, 01:34:04 AM »
Ultimately, as far as hydraulics go the brake system- especially non ABS- is pretty simple. If the pedal is sinking on application then either the fluid pressure is expanding something in the system requiring more pedal travel to maintain brake force, something physical is flexing (I recall a situation a few years back with the Mk1 Ford Focus where a TSB was issued for fitting stiffening brackets to the servo mountings on the bulkhead due to flexing), there is still air in the system or there is a leak somewhere you have not yet been able to detect.

However, what does not make sense here is that you say this has only been an issue since you changed discs and pads. The only possible other explanation is that some kind of dirt or contaminant has been disturbed by you retracting the pistons back into the calipers and it is preventing proper bleeding of air or transfer of fluid. The fact that this issue is only detectable with the engine running implies that the extra assistance is required from the servo for it to manifest itself.
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline Chrispb

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Re: Bloody sodding brakes on mK1
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2014, 02:01:06 AM »
Hi BJ
And there was me thinking ABS was standard oh well you learn something everyday.
As for the pedal falling that is a classic master cylinder fault.
Stretching brake pipes does seem feasible but never come across it though I do remember they used to check for this on the MOT but they don't seem to now
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspächer booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

With VCDS lite (full version) need a code clearing or want to scan for faults in the north kent area, PM me.
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Offline bigjeeze

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Re: Bloody sodding brakes on mK1
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2014, 04:28:54 PM »
Thanks Chris.   I didn't realise there didn't have ABS either until on removing the wheels I couldn't find any sensors.  I looked on Euro car parts site and they show a with and without ABS Master cylinder.

Well I went back to the car this morning and the pedal doesn't sink as before!!  I have no idea why.  I have now bled them again once more to ensure no air.  They are slightly spongy but not the sinking as before.   I expect the sponginess to last a while as the pads were renewed but not the discs and there is some scoring. I have checked and checked - there are no leaks anywhere and it maintains pressure when the brakes are applied.  Also just to make sure I had someone watch the hoses whilst the brake was pressed and there is no movement or swelling apparent.  I'll give it a few days to settle down and keep an eye on it.

I took it out and gave it some hard braking and all is well.

Thanks for your help guys - I let you know how this progresses.

BJ.
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