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Author Topic: driveshaft failure diagnosis  (Read 2510 times)

Offline gcforehill

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driveshaft failure diagnosis
« on: January 21, 2018, 07:48:01 PM »
2nd time i've posted this as i think i used the wrong subject last time,anyway,i came to a junction to turn right,slowed down,went down a gear and lost all drive.rac reckons clutch or gearbox i think it may be driveshaft.the car will run through all the gears and when i engage gear and let the clutch up there is no noise present.if it was the stub axle that engages with the gearbox that was worn would there be any noise?neither driveshaft is turning.there was no problems with either the clutch or the gearbox beforehand and about a week ago i had a new offside driveshaft fitted,the part that bolts on at both ends.is there any way to diagnose if the stub axle is the problem without stripping the driveshaft or what is the quickest way to remove it from the car,any advice would be much appreciated as i need a car asap,would rather repair if economically viable as this is the most versatile car i've had,and i just spent £400 on the mot!!many thanks

Offline Mirez

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2018, 08:08:37 PM »
Hi Gordon and welcome! You do normally get a lot of noise when the splines fail as the teeth bounce over each other and the drive is lost. Sometimes drive is still present in reverse as the trailing edge can get more purchase so I would see if it will move in reverse.

Failing that then you'll need to go underneath and check out the state of the joint manually but its certainly a possibility. I'd also check the fluid level in the brake reserve as that feeds the hydraulic clutch but from the description is sounds more like slave cylinder failure within the clutch then the drive shaft splines... sorry!
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Offline Chrispb

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2018, 08:55:13 PM »
May just be coincidence but losing the drive after having a shaft changed, I certainly have a look and make sure it's still attached.
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Offline gcforehill

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2018, 09:17:56 PM »
thank you both for the rapid replies.tried it in reverse,no movement but i've just noticed there is a clicking/grinding noise when in gear with the clutch pedal up,its a bit noisier in 4th and 5th but does it in all gears.its really quite quiet though,i had a driveshaft failure before and it was very noisy/loud but could this still possibly be failure of the stub axle at the gearbox end which might quieten down the sound?clutch seems to be working fine as it seems to be engaging/disengaging.think the shaft is still connected otherwise the rac would have spotted it,or so i hope :-X!

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2018, 10:09:37 PM »
If it goes in to gear ok with engine running it certainly sounds like a failure of a shaft,if clutch had failed you would struggle to engage a gear and it would be very noisy when moving the stick.

Offline gcforehill

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2018, 11:36:15 PM »
yes thats what i thought and its only as the clutch pedal is raised that the sound becomes evident.and as i said before there were no issues whatsoever beforehand regarding the clutch or gearbox.if i jack up the front and remove the wheels is there any way to check stub axle for damaged splines without removing the driveshaft?

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2018, 08:04:22 AM »
You will probably need undertray off and get underneath to check the stub by holding that and trying to rotate the shaft. you won’t need wheels off to do it.

Offline gcforehill

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2018, 12:55:12 PM »
thanks for that,would i also check the actual stub axle by rotating it to find out if the splines on the stub axle itself are damaged where it goes in the gearbox?

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2018, 02:29:57 PM »
Try in neutral see if there are any noises rough feeling,then try in gear and try turning stub with other wheel held to stop it turning and see if stub rotates.

Offline gcforehill

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2018, 02:55:40 PM »
would that mean if the stub turned that the splines on the stub going into the gearbox are damaged?and should i use a high or low gear?the noise is loudest in 5th and 6th but its, not what you would call loud

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2018, 04:46:54 PM »
Yes if it turns gearbox side then stub splines in box are stripped or issue with the diff. Any gear will do all you are doing is connecting engine to transmission to get the resistance that should stop shaft turning easily so long as other wheel is not free to rotate.

Offline gcforehill

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2018, 07:05:05 PM »
by issue with the diff do you mean stripped splines in the diff or some other issue?is there any way to remove the stub axle without stripping the driveshaft complete?thanks

Offline bouncypete

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2018, 08:59:52 PM »
If I recall correctly, the stub axle fails, not the gearbox. https://www.fordmpv.com/smf2/ford-galaxy-common-faults-and-problems/galaxy-mk2-gearbox-drive-stub-axel-and-half-shaft-(inner-drive-shaft)/

To remove the right driveshaft you don't need to remove the wheel or hub. It might actually say so in the text of this link, I've very quickly scan read it but just in case, you do not need to remove the two bolts on the bottom ball joint circled in green.  https://www.fordmpv.com/smf2/ford-galaxy-common-faults-and-problems/galaxy-inner-cv-jointboot-renewal-mk2/

Once the drive shaft bolt is out of the hub and the six bolts released from the stub axle end it will side in-board and out.

Offline bouncypete

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2018, 09:32:26 PM »
I should have added, you should sign up for both GSF's and Euro Car Parts news letters/emails. They give their discount codes. GSF typically have 55% off at the weekends and ECP discounts vary.

GSF's latest code was 57% which ran out on Sunday and ECP's 40% code (MID40) runs out at midnight tonight.

I've reserved parts 'click and collect' using discount codes before investigating the actual fault, then if I need the part I'll collect the item, if it turns out I don't need it, I'll simply not collect the part.

I'll only do this one or two days in advance and only if the code is going to expire before I've had a chance to see what I actually need.


Offline gcforehill

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2018, 10:41:01 PM »
thank you very much for all that advice its much appreciated  ;D,would it be ok to re use the driveshaft to hub bolt until i can order one from a dealer,or would a motor factor have one?will jack the car up tomorrow,if the rain ever stops :-[ and have a look using the advice you have all given me,hopefully its a shaft repair and not a gearbox or clutch!

Offline gcforehill

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2018, 10:59:07 PM »
forgot to ask,does anyone know the torque setting for the stub axle to geardox hex bolt and also could i ask what gsf stands for as i have never heard of them before

Offline Chrispb

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2018, 11:45:49 PM »
HISTORY
GSF Car Parts really began back in the 1970s. Today’s business brought together in April 2000 by the German & Swedish Management Team stems from a number of long standing car parts specialists such as Vee Wee, Autocavan, Andyspares, and URO Automotive.

Since the formation of GSF Car Parts in 2000, the company has developed a parts and distribution portfolio to create the UK’s largest independent parts supplier. Today, GSF Car Parts employs over 1000 people covering all of the UK as well as Ireland. We operate over 65 stores and over 400 GSF delivery vans.

KEY DEVELOPMENTS
1977 - Stan West, founder and owner of GSF Car Parts started business in one half of a tumbledown shed in a corner of a Battersea salvage yard. He called his business VeeWee.

1981 - Wholesale suppliers Kontinental Auto Werke (KAW) buys VeeWee and Stan joins the Management team.

1987 - German and Swedish is established by Stan and his business partner, Maurice Forde.

2000 - The company acquires Andyspares, adding French car parts to the range and is renamed German Swedish and French.

2000 - GSF also acquires Autocavan and URO automotive.

2003 - Hans Motors joins GSF Car Parts and sells all makes parts to other factors.

2005 - GSF adds an all makes range of parts to its specialist inventory and becomes GSF Car Parts.

2006 - TDCS is bought by GSF Car Parts enabling industry-leading diagnostic equipment sales.

2009 - GSF Car Parts complete several branch refurbishments and upgrade the whole company's stock criteria.

2010 - GSF Car Parts sign up with several leading garage equipment providers and offer a market leading garage equipment solution to support the existing diagnostics business.

2010 - GSF Banbury, Leeds East (Regional Distribution Centre), Worcester, Letchworth and Kettering are opened.

2011 - GSF Bristol (Regional Distribution Centre), Middlesbrough, Gloucester, Bedford and Rochdale are opened.

2012 - GSF Barnstaple, Finchley, Oxford, Shrewsbury, Milton Keynes, Torquay and Basingstoke, Harlow and Taunton are opened.

2013 - GSF Sittingbourne is opened. GSF Tottenham is due to open soon
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Offline gcforehill

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2018, 11:52:34 PM »
thanks for that,turns out i do know them after all

Offline bouncypete

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2018, 08:51:33 PM »
GSF = German, Swedish and French.

I've replaced both driveshafts using ECP parts and they came with the hub bolts. I don't own a torque wrench but I know when a bolt is loose, tight and over tightened by feel.

Technically it's only 'my car' when it needs work. I don't drive it very often, otherwise I'd notice when something is 'not quite right'.

I changed the right stub axle because it had lost drive. It'd worn the splines between the stub axle and the coupling that goes into the diff. The diff itself was fine and the coupling came as part of the stub axle assembly.

I changed the left driveshaft because both gaiters were split. I think it'd been driven for a while like this and after discount driveshaft didn't cost much more than both gaiters at full price.

Offline gcforehill

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2018, 10:39:58 PM »
you don't happen to remember the part number and price? as i'm not completely sure of what i should be asking for,thanks again

Offline bouncypete

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2018, 06:57:01 PM »
Yep, thanks to google.

654590131   Q-Drive Driveshaft (Front Axle Left; Front Axle Right) (£74.99 before discount)
654598611   Q-Drive Driveshaft (Front Inner Right; Inner Right) (£159.99 before discount)

Total price before discount £164.49

(Total price after 30% discount that was available at the time was £164.49)

I'm shocked to see the current prices are quite a bit more expensive. Brexit maybe?
654590131   Q-Drive Driveshaft (Front Axle Left; Front Axle Right) £101.99
654598611   Q-Drive Driveshaft (Front Inner Right; Inner Right) £209.99

Offline gcforehill

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2018, 02:11:58 PM »
jacked up the offside wheel today,with the car in gear i can turn the driveshaft round and at the stub axle i can move it up and down and side to side,i can also move the stub axle in a circular motion.does this mean the stub axle splines are knackered?if the weather is ok tomorrow i will try to remove the driveshaft and stub axle and inspect it for wear.to remove the stub axle bolt do i put the car in gear?also does anyone know what size of hex bolt is used as i will have to buy the correct fitting to do the job.thanks again

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2018, 03:07:47 PM »
So the shaft in to stub axle turns but stub in to gearbox is ok?
New shaft and stub will fix that then.
No idea on sizes though as not don’t that job myself.

Offline bouncypete

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2018, 06:19:50 PM »
To remove the stub axle bolt do i put the car in gear?also does anyone know what size of hex bolt is used.
I’m not sure what you’ve just said. You might be mixing up the terminology of the parts.

Both outer driveshafts are identical, however as the diff is offset the right side uses an additional shaft, called a stub axle, between the diff and the outer driveshaft.

Just to confuse things there is a short stub that goes into the diff that the stub axle fits into. The splines usually fail between this short stub and the stub axle. You can clearly see all of this in the link I posted earlier. https://www.fordmpv.com/smf2/ford-galaxy-common-faults-and-problems/galaxy-mk2-gearbox-drive-stub-axel-and-half-shaft-(inner-drive-shaft)/

If I understand your question correctly, you’re asking what size is the big bolt that goes through the hub into the outer driveshaft. 27mm.

The very first thing you should do is pop the hub cap off and loosen this bolt with the cars weight on its wheels. You do not need to remove the road wheel at all.

Offline bouncypete

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2018, 06:39:34 PM »
As your car won’t drive you’ll have to Jack your car up and ideally onto normal metal car ramps.

That’ll give you enough room to work but leave the weight on the wheels to loosen the splined bolts on the inboard end of the outer driveshafts. Once you’ve loosened the two, maybe three you can access, jack it again and rotate the shaft until to get at the next two or three, again lowering it to stop it rotating whilst you are undoing the bolts.

You'll also have to do this as putting the car in gear won't help, the splines are gone and the shaft will rotate just using the gears.

Offline gcforehill

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2018, 07:00:04 PM »
thanks,it appears that the splines on what you call "the short stub" that goes into the gearbox diff has stripped its splines,as i said earlier i can move it in all directions including in a circular motion with the offside front jacked up and the car in gear.this stub is held in place with a hex bolt and i was asking if anyone knew the size of it,i should however be ok as i bought a set of 6 various hex bits today so should now have the size thats needed.with regards to your second post are you saying that i cant remove the driveshaft(s) complete and then unbolt the long hex head bolt that secures the short stub axle that goes into the diff?

Offline Mirez

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2018, 07:17:51 PM »
From memory its a 7mm allen
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Offline gcforehill

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2018, 07:33:06 PM »
i'd just like to say thank you to everyone who has given me advice with regards to this subject i am not very mechanically minded i'm afraid but you have given me the confidence to "have a go" and no doubt saved me from being ripped off.weather permitting i will attempt to dismantle these parts tomorrow and see what i find,once again thanks to all

Offline bouncypete

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2018, 08:24:38 PM »
I changed both shafts when I did my car. I don't think you can remove both of them together as an assembly and whilst it might be possible to remove the inner shaft without removing the outer shaft first I'd think it outer shaft would keep getting in the way, besides your going to have to take the out the six bolts that bolt the two shafts together. The only other thing holding the outer shaft in place would be the bolt in the hub.

With the outer shaft removed you just remove the two bolts which attach the inner shaft support to the diff and pull it out of the little stub. Finally remove the socket (allen) headed bolt from the middle of the stub and pull it out of the diff as well.


Offline Mirez

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2018, 08:34:33 PM »
You don't have to remove it but you do need to lower it, ie you can undo those 6 bolts and separate the two shafts by lowering that of the shaft whilst leaving it attached at the wheel end - make sure you support it with some string though as it shouldn't be suspended on its own weight.
03 Ford Galaxy 1.9 TDI 115 Ghia in Spruce Green Metallic
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Offline gcforehill

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2018, 09:46:30 PM »
please correct me if i am wrong but i have just had a bad thought :P! seriously though father, i was thinking as the "short stub" that goes into the gearbox diff is turning by hand when i jack the car up on the offside and put the car in gear would that point to the problem being with the diff/gearbox or could it still just be stripped splines in the "short stub" where it joins the diff.just a thought,i don't do them to often so i just thought i'd share it while i'm having one

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2018, 06:05:32 AM »
If it’s turning within the gearbox then it is damaged gearbox End also. The car being in gear and other wheel not able to turn should stop the other shaft in gearbox from turning. Quickly reading your post above I thought the shaft to stub axle was turning but gearbox side was ok.

If I were you I would get the shaft disconnected and take stub axles out and see exactly what’s going on with it before ordering any parts.

Offline bouncypete

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2018, 10:12:02 AM »
The latest discount code for German and Swedish is GSF60

60%, Valid until Tuesday

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2018, 10:23:08 AM »
Yep, thanks to google.
654590131   Q-Drive Driveshaft (Front Axle Left; Front Axle Right) £101.99
654598611   Q-Drive Driveshaft (Front Inner Right; Inner Right) £209.99

I forgot to point out. I'd bought my parts from Euro Car Parts. On the day, with discount they were cheaper that GSF

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Re: driveshaft failure diagnosis
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2018, 11:35:36 AM »
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