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Author Topic: Engine won't turn off!  (Read 10235 times)

Offline alexk

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Engine won't turn off!
« on: January 19, 2016, 05:09:27 PM »
Very strange symptoms if anyone can help me. The wife said that she went to start the car and all the instrument panel lights were already on and flickering before she put the ignition key in. Then she had to try several times to get the starter motor going. She said it then took a minute for the engine to turn off and intstrument lights to go out when the ignition was turned off. I went down and dîd vagcom which didn't show much of import I think (MAF and fuel sensor intermittent short and low key signal in immobiliser).
The engine started fine for me but when I turned off the ignition the engine stayed running even when I took the key out. I had to stall the engine to turn it off. Then I noticed with the key still removed that some of the instrument lights were flickering on and off. I've disconnected the battety till I can figure it out. Any ideas?

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2016, 06:52:39 PM »
If it's any help, there have been some other elec issues recently. Intermittently the heater blower stops working then comes back and the wipers only worked on fastest speed for a while also

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2016, 07:01:25 PM »
Also glow plug relay short showed up on scan (j52)

Offline Grant2012

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2016, 07:17:42 PM »
I would guess its something electrical  :P (Sorry couldnee resist)

if glowplugs are on permanently that could cause it to carry on running if its also got week injectors
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Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2016, 08:37:03 PM »
What is the normal mechanism that shuts off the engine when the ignition is turned off?

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2016, 09:25:02 PM »
Is it a pd engine in yours?

I would be looking at ignition switch and relays first as dash stays powered up,if something is preventing it switching off it will most likely be keeping power to ecu etc

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2016, 09:26:15 PM »
Or alternator could be another culprit had one pack up in the past that kept ignition live

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2016, 10:53:11 AM »
Thanks for the replies. I have it in with the auto electrician but I don't think he has a clue where to start. He can't even get it started yet. To get it started myself I had to disconnect the battety neg. I heard a click and then reconnected it. Even though the dash lights were already lit before I put in the key it started first time. It drives fine when it is running but still will not power off when ignition turned off. Any more ideas

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2016, 11:10:17 AM »
If you heard a click when disconnecting battery that would suggest a relay either sticking on or remaining energised due to faulty ignition switch to me. It would certainly be my first port of call checking for feed out of ignition switch on auxiliary circuit then take from there

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2016, 02:29:51 PM »
Ok, the auto guy got it going again by removing the live feed from the body control module (it's in the middle of the fuse board by drivers right knee and I'll post a pic later if poss). This unfortunately has to be plugged back in whilst driving or the indicators don't work. And unplugged again to turn the ignition off.  Its not ideal obviously but the auto guy said he'd need the car for a lot longer to delve into the circuit boards and find out where the bridging fault is occurring to keep the ignition live.  Time will tell if the car really can drive without faults with this live feed removed. And we'll probably have to investigate further - cost depending I guess. It [bis[/b] a pretty old car

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2016, 03:58:24 PM »
This is the live feed (red cable going into port on top left of picture with tipex marks around it). Does anyone know how easy/difficult it might be for an amateur (me) to get behind this board and try and find a "bridging fault"?

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2016, 04:02:06 PM »
That pic seems to have come out sideways - I'll try again:

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2016, 04:06:29 PM »
Ok that pic seems to want to stay sideways. So the red cable is on the bottom left

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2016, 04:29:17 PM »
If it was me I would get a replacement fuse board/control unit as they are not unknown to cause problems

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2016, 07:29:48 PM »
Thanks, that's a good idea

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2016, 10:52:12 PM »
If I get a replacement fusebox does it have to be from a mark1 1.9? Or will one from a mk1 2.3 auto be ok or from a mk2 diesel?

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2016, 12:13:37 AM »
As it is more than just a fuse box I would hazard a guess and say they are different between mark 1 and 2 and also between petrol and diesel.
Easiest way to tell us see if you can find a vw part number on yours and match it up against a potential replacement

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2016, 08:59:32 AM »
That makes sense. I'll have a look and then see if I can find one

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2016, 10:35:17 AM »
If you swing fuse box down there is usually a white sticker on side showing the part number

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2016, 08:41:11 PM »
Found one on ebay for €35. Vw dealer quoted €1850 for same part!! I'll see next week I guess if this is the fix

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2016, 05:00:27 PM »
Oh no what have I done now? Got the replacement fuse board and it made no difference to the problem of the dash staying powered up after ignition key removed. Replaced the old one.  So started another direction and started removing the fuses one by one to see if one of them was linked to the problem. Got to fuse number 3 and the lights went out. Yes! Except that now the car will not start with or without the fusebox 12v plugged in or the fuse 4 removed or not.  Turns over and sounds like might be immobiliser? Door light stays on for a few seconds as normal. There's a clicking noise from the footwell area as the engine turns over and this coincides with a brief flash of the door light. Have tried completely disconnecting battery for a few minutes. Still no joy. Any ideas how to get started again?

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2016, 05:38:54 PM »
What's fuse 3 for and when you took out was engine running at the time or just ignition on?
When you was removing fuses did you just do 1 at a time and refit before taking another one out?

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2016, 06:02:28 PM »
I was taking the fuses out one by one and the ignition was on and engine off. Fuse 3 is 5amp for clock, glove compartment light, sunroof, parking aid, thermo switch outside temp, ABS, air cond, speed control, navigation system, central junction box. I also replaced relay 109 with a spare I had and checked the other relays had not loosened when pulling the fuse box down to try the replacement fuse box.

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2016, 07:41:25 PM »
Just thinking (fatal probably) is there a fuel solenoid or something that is responsible for shutting off the engine? Could this have been responsible for the engine failing to shut off and now failing to start?

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2016, 10:32:21 PM »
Not on modern engines the ecu shuts off power to fuel pump,injectors and ignition to switch engine off.

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2016, 10:49:52 PM »
Have you tried the old 109 relay to make sure the one you fitted isn't faulty?

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2016, 07:59:55 AM »
Yes I put the old 109 relay back in after the swap made no difference. One thing I noticed while looking in the engine bay for faulty earths was that there was a steady drip of water coming from the wiper tray and landing on the vacuum pipes around the egr valve. I read on some post that someone was having similar symptoms to me from a wiper tray leak onto a transponder relay. I couldn't see anything like are relay in the area though.

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2016, 08:39:27 AM »
I have a 1.9 and had scuttle out numerous times and have never seen anything like that in there.
Are the dash lights still on even though it won't start? If so have you tried disconnecting the ignition switch? Also I would try disconnecting alternator to see if that makes a difference.

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2016, 09:27:28 AM »
Yes the ignition lights are on still. Will try disconnecting the alternator this morning. How will disconnecting ignition help it to start? And is it just a connector under the steering column?

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2016, 09:30:11 AM »
I am thinking to see if ignition lights go out with switch disconnected,also if no feed out when cranking that will stop it starting, so could be just a faulty switch causing it all.do you have a multimeter?

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2016, 11:33:24 AM »
I have a multimeter. Tried disconnecting the alternator but didn't help. How do I get at the ignition switch?

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2016, 12:03:43 PM »
You need to take steering column cowls off,few screws underneath and it should separate

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2016, 06:22:41 PM »
Yay! I finally got the old beast started. Found a tip on fordownersclub.com:

''Pull the plug off the maf sensor and see if the black and yellow wire is live with the ignition switched on , if not and you feel brave enough , put 12v down that line , if the car starts it's likely the ignition relay.''

As soon as I connected the 12v live feed from the battery to this wire (with the MAF still plugged in) I heard a click from the region of the timing belt I think and then the engine started with first turn of the key. I still have the original problem (dash staying powered up and engine staying on with key removed). Does anyone know what might be clicking like a relay in the engine bay? And which is the ignition relay as this other site suggests? I pulled out relay 185 and had a look at the solder points but they looked fine to me. P.S. I also unplugged the ignition in the steering column to see if this would cause the dash lights to go out but this had no effect.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 06:30:20 PM by alexk »

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2016, 02:30:19 PM »
Well I seem to have kind of resolved the problem (I think). I found that number 14 fuse (fuel supply and ignition relay)had been dislodged when I was pulling them out and checking them. Hence the non starting  :-[. I took out the number 3 fuse again and this killed the everlasting dash lights and the engine seems to be starting and stopping normally now.
Fuse 3 is 5amp for clock, glove compartment light, sunroof, parking aid, thermo switch outside temp, ABS, air cond, speed control, navigation system, central junction box. I haven't driven the car yet or looked into which of these systems (if any) might be causing the fault. Would there be any likely issue with just carrying on with this fuse removed?

Offline Mirez

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2016, 05:53:00 PM »
Well it's never ideal to drive around with a fuse out/blown! It's normally down to the tailgate wiring shorting which causes that one to pop.
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Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2016, 06:10:23 PM »
One of the first things I did was to check the tailgate loom. Found a few deteriorated wires and taped them up. Is there a way to check the wires further into the tailgate?

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2016, 06:22:43 PM »
I also unplugged all four multi plugs that I found in the drivers side boot storage space and this made no difference to the symptoms. I assumed that this would disconnect all the wires going into the boot loom.

Offline Chrispb

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2016, 08:08:47 PM »
Yay! I finally got the old beast started. Found a tip on fordownersclub.com:

''Pull the plug off the maf sensor and see if the black and yellow wire is live with the ignition switched on , if not and you feel brave enough , put 12v down that line , if the car starts it's likely the ignition relay.''

As soon as I connected the 12v live feed from the battery to this wire (with the MAF still plugged in) I heard a click from the region of the timing belt I think and then the engine started with first turn of the key. I still have the original problem (dash staying powered up and engine staying on with key removed). Does anyone know what might be clicking like a relay in the engine bay? And which is the ignition relay as this other site suggests? I pulled out relay 185 and had a look at the solder points but they looked fine to me. P.S. I also unplugged the ignition in the steering column to see if this would cause the dash lights to go out but this had no effect.
Probably the fuel stop solenoid clicking
 on the injection pump, have you already checked relay 109 this is the power for pump ecu and solenoid.
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Offline gregers

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2016, 09:12:49 PM »
are you absolutely sure you found ALL wires that were broken?

taping them up really isnt a good idea,they really should be extended then soldered and heat shrink,that way you wont have to visit this area again for a long time.
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Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2016, 06:50:52 PM »
Still trying to figure out this electrical problem... Checked out all the gaitor wirings and redid the boot ones with heat shrink. Checked all systems on fuse 4. Then I noticed a parasitic battety drain and pulled the fuses again one by one. The culprit was number 53 (consumer cut-off relay (interior lights). With this pulled out I could replace Fuse 4 and not get the original symptoms (dash staying lit etc). All the interior lights seem to be working. Interestingly,  one of the functions of fuse 4 was for the glove box light which also operates normally.  Anyone have any thoughts where to proceed from here?

Offline alexk

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2016, 06:53:55 PM »
Ps. What would the consequences be of running the car without this fuse (number 53)?

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Re: Engine won't turn off!
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2019, 11:33:17 PM »
Hi, I had the same symptoms, battery drain after two days, doorlock was clogged as I haven’t used it for a while so I had to jack up the car to recharge the battery at the start motor, when the voltage rised I noticed on the dashboard that the ignition was on, started the engine and couldn’t turn it off!
I had spilled some water on the floor some weeks ago so I thought I had to check the connectors under the passenger seat, I opened the right rear door and noticed the dashboard flickering, so I swung? the door a couple of times and the dashboard lights went on and off.
I disconnected the wiring loom and gaiter and found several wires bent off and the insulation was cracked on most of them so now I have some soldering to do!
Anyway, this short circuit in the door loom caused the ignition to come on and maybe this post can help someone else in the future.
Cheers!

 

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