Ford and Volkswagen MPV Forums

Large MPVs -- Ford Galaxy / VW Sharan / SEAT Alhambra: => Ford Galaxy / VW Sharan / SEAT Alhambra => Topic started by: johnnyroper on October 16, 2015, 04:25:28 PM

Title: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: johnnyroper on October 16, 2015, 04:25:28 PM
First post so hi all.

Firstly some background info.

Purchased a 2002 1.9tdi Galaxy with the AUY engine,it initially had head gasket failure pressurising cooling system from no2. I had head off and did all required work gaskets,bolts and belts etc everything locked with VW tools and torqued.
The pressurising and coolant loss issue now all resolved.
The problem I have is after standing for a length of time like overnight it is a pain to start it cranks fine but takes about 15 seconds to fire, it then splutters in to life rather lumpy and emitting blue smoke initially. After 5-10 seconds it runs fine and clean. And starts immediately every time after unless left for several hours.

During head overhaul injector seals were done with new bolts and set up as per spec,camshaft and lifters are perfect also.
I set torsion value to 0.0.
It had all filters changed and new pd oil. Glow plugs are new tested anyway and working fine.
Plugged in to vcds no dtc's stored, coolant temp and fuel temp sensors working both showed 7.5 degrees first thing in morning.
I initially thought fuel draining back so fitted clear pipes found thermostat on filter sucking in air so sorted that,I clamped pipe from fuel return to filter and pressure held,tried with feed to tandem that was on,even like that it still suffered same issue. I tried parking downhill on drive to be sure and still the same fault.

At a loss now as to what could be causing it does anyone have any ideas what I could try next please?
Should just mention no oil dilution or oil feeding back in to fuel from return so assume injector seals are ok?
Title: Re: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: insanitybeard on October 16, 2015, 05:02:03 PM
Howdy!

The blue smoke you mention on startup- what is that? Is it unburnt fuel? Sure sounds like it's related to the fuel system somehow. Is the lift pump in the tank doing it's job properly?
Title: Re: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: johnnyroper on October 16, 2015, 06:00:37 PM
It certainly seems like unburnt fuel as it only happens when the start problem occurs and engine running rough. Once started and left 5-10 seconds it is smooth and smoke free.
I can hear the tank pump purge and when I had clear pipes fitted from filter I could see the fuel moving round pipe work although not sure if it is at correct pressure.
With these engines does the tank pump run all the time or is it just for starting up and then tandem pump takes over?
Title: Re: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: insanitybeard on October 16, 2015, 07:02:26 PM
I don't know the answer to that, but would guess it only serves to prime the system initially as once the engine is running the mechanical tandem pump will provide sufficient pumping action as it runs all the time the engine does. The fact that you're getting smoke initially is a puzzler, that to me would indicate something other than a low pressure fuel supply problem. Are the cylinder compressions definitely ok (not that that's something you can easily test admittedly) and is the cam timing bang on?

I've often wondered if the gumming up of the inlet manifolds and EGR valve may intermittently cause the anti-shudder flap in the EGR valve (where fitted) to stick in the closed position on engine shutdown therefore preventing proper airflow when you attempt to restart.
Title: Re: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: johnnyroper on October 16, 2015, 07:21:28 PM
I checked compression prior to strip down and again once back together and all 4 virtually the same and within spec.
The cam timing was set initially with VW kicking tools and rechecked several times after turning by hand etc. The torsion value was set to 0.0 with engine at operating temp and no load on. I rechecked cam timing with locking tools whilst doing this so I am 100% it's all good.
The smoke seems to be in my opinion due to excess cranking before firing allowing fuel to fill bores at low pressure then it gets partial burnt when started. Can't be sure but way it runs it seems like that.
When I had head off the manifold,egr and anti shudder were thoroughly cleaned off all the black gunk so I think it is ok. However it's a good shout with anti shudder I will check the position of flap prior to start up in the morning.
Title: Re: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: insanitybeard on October 16, 2015, 07:43:15 PM
So assuming the base engine and cam timing is all good, let's return to the fuel system. How long have you had the vehicle? Did you buy it knowing the head gasket was cooked?
Title: Re: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: johnnyroper on October 16, 2015, 08:01:43 PM
Had it about 6 weeks,yes bought it knowing head gasket was gone. Advertised as coolant loss but no idea where from I know the AUY has gasket issues due to bolts working loose so took a punt as was cheap. And it did indeed turn out bolts had stretched and worked loose slightly. Head was checked and fine so just gasket gone.

It defo didn't have the starting issue prior to head work as I left parked up a couple of days before I had time to strip it,I never checked the torsion value before the work so don't know what was set at. I am thinking maybe I should give it a go slightly more advanced as I have ran out of ideas now.
Title: Re: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: insanitybeard on October 16, 2015, 10:52:19 PM
Did the injectors go back in their original positions? I've seen mention of special tools/ sleeves to prevent the O-rings from becoming twisted when installing. If the middle (centre) of the 3 O-rings was to not seal fully it looks like it may be possible for fuel to 'leak' from the feed gallery into the return gallery and bypass the injector itself, if this was to occur the leak might not be external- i.e, into the cylinders or out into the rocker area. Of course this is just speculation on my part but if I understand the injector layout diagram properly it looks possible, though how probable I have no idea.
Title: Re: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: johnnyroper on October 16, 2015, 11:05:37 PM
Can't be 100% sure but I think they did as had good positive feel when pushing back in,also measured the distance from head to mounting face to align correctly before talking down.
I took great care installing the rings and they didn't look twisted.
It's obviously something I have done/disturbed so might have to pull em out and try again if all else fails.
Thinking about it that makes sense as if it happened I would not get air in feed to tandem due to leakage as there is a non return inside it I think?
Also it would only be a slight leak enough to cause starting issues but not enough to drain all fuel back down return so no visible air in pipe back to thermostat on filter.
Thinking a mitivac on return pipe could check that out to see if it holds vac over long periods?
Title: Re: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: insanitybeard on October 17, 2015, 10:40:41 AM
Not really sure how you'd achieve it but being that the system works under pressure not vacuum, if I was going to test I'd try disconnecting the fuel lines from the cylinder head and pressurising each gallery (feed and return) in turn to see if the pressure drops when left for extended periods. For this to work I'm assuming that the injectors will let no fuel pass when they're not energised.
Title: Re: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: Chrispb on October 17, 2015, 12:09:37 PM
As for the injector seals have you checked for raised oil level as fuel can leak into the sump if seals are not fitted correctly or damaged.
My first thought this is a timing issue even though you say it runs OK when warm, this is not the first time this issue has occurred after a belt removal.
Title: Re: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: johnnyroper on October 17, 2015, 12:54:18 PM
The injectors need to be energised to leak in to cylinder unless one is dribbling.
My only thoughts are if I pressurise or vac test will it just loop through from return to feed anyway or is the return side opened during energisation?

I have been checking oil level over past couple weeks since its been up and running and there is no difference in level and oils seems fine,does not appear to be diluted as viscosity is still good. I suppose it all depends how much is leaking by (if at all) as to how long it will take to notice dilution?
At this point I don't see I have much to lose by slackening bolts and doing a bit of trial and error with timing to see if things improve. If it changes.
Title: Re: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: insanitybeard on October 17, 2015, 01:11:01 PM
Assuming the injectors aren't at fault and don't let any fuel past unless they're energised, in theory if you pressurise the feed and return galleries in turn then they should effectively be sealed chambers unless something is leaking.
Title: Re: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: johnnyroper on October 17, 2015, 01:14:39 PM
I am going to try pressurising the feed and returns in turn and see what happens,got a makeshift hose with valve to put on and pressurise with foot pump.
Then will advance timing slightly if nothing definitive,think I am at the trial and error stage now?

Title: Re: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: johnnyroper on October 17, 2015, 04:15:39 PM
Update

I connected a hose with schrader valve to tandem intake at non return valve and blanked hose from fuel temp sensor,pumped to 1bar (figured it runs higher than this and return held at 1 bar so should be safe) pressure held ok.
If hose is disconnected from temp sensor pressure drops and if pumping up it vents straight through. So I either have knackered seals on injectors or it is just injector spill off??

I have also advanced timing slightly won't know if that helps until morning but I have noticed car pulls so much better like this and seems to run smoother?
Checked some readings this is what I got now.

Torsion is -3.9cf even though I went clockwise with camshaft so I thought should advance??

Injector stabilisation within spec but difference between them
Cyl1 0.16mg/str
Cyl2 0.28mg/str
Cyl3 0.26mg/str
Cyl4 0.12mg/str
Specific injection start 0.6 ATDC
Maf actual fluctuates between 450.8-465.0 when vcds says should be 230.0-420.0 mg/str

Anything in that lot stick out as a possible cause of problem?
Title: Re: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: insanitybeard on October 18, 2015, 12:06:54 PM
I've never used the VCDS diagnostics/ measuring blocks so I can't really help with what's normal and what isn't, same with what's normal regarding the low pressure fuel system and pressure testing, you may be better off seeing if somebody at a diesel specialist such as Electro Diesel (amoung others) can offer any advice/ assistance, I don't know for sure if the injectors will allow fuel to pass from feed to return even if they're not energised.

I did find the below attachment which is quite interesting as a system overview, I haven't studied it properly yet but it may be of some assistance:

[attachurl=1]
Title: Re: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: johnnyroper on October 18, 2015, 02:53:34 PM
Thanks for that I just had a quick read and it would appear small amount of supply fuel is diverted around injector and out through return to control injector temperature,that would explain what I found yesterday when pressurising the system. Not really sure if it does this at a certain point in the injection process or if the injectors all do this regardless of the cam position?

Don't know if it was a fluke because I used the car later last night but it fired up ok today,burst in to life on turn of key although did have a puff of smoke and slight rough running. It's definitely better so it would seem you were spot on about the timing being likely cause? I will see what happens in morning and if still ok I may advance it a touch more see if it will start perfect after.
Title: Re: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: johnnyroper on October 20, 2015, 06:26:47 PM
Thanks for the replies just another update.

It was caused by timing as been starting fine first thing since I advanced it slightly,although still baffled why vcds shows - figure in torsion value when I went clockwise with cam? Anyway I am going to leave well alone as it is all good. I can live with the little puff of smoke from cold so long as it carries on starting and running well.

That's another job crossed off the list of stuff to do.
Title: Re: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: Chrispb on October 20, 2015, 08:38:18 PM
The timing is quite critical on diesel engines, the normal method of locking the camshaft with the suitable pin and crankshaft locking tool is usually sufficient to get good results without actually touching the three cam pulley bolts, just one tooth out is enough to cause these problems.
Obviously you have now got it close enough to alleviate the starting problem but may still not be spot on.
When using VCDS you should see the timing is different when the engine is cold iirc 5deg BTDC then close to 0 when hot.

Assuming the engine is in good condition EG. piston rings + valve stem seals the blue smoke may be the turbo seals failing.
Title: Re: Galaxy 1.9tdi poor starting after long stand
Post by: johnnyroper on October 23, 2015, 07:57:28 AM
Cheers for reply

I don't really know if timing on vcds is accurate due to showing neg when I advanced it slightly.
Not checked when cold yet,I am thinking signal from cam sensor maybe incorrect,I know belt timing is spot on as I have used locking tools to set and check after.

The puff of smoke has now eased since running some injector cleaner through a tank a fuel.
It is still starting fine hot or cold and runs smooth and pulls well so I might just leave well alone now.