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Author Topic: is it my turbo?  (Read 9953 times)

Offline redbull2k

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is it my turbo?
« on: October 26, 2016, 05:46:18 PM »
I was driving home from a longish trip, i decided to overtake a slow moving vehicle, i went from 5th gear at a speed of around 45-50mph to 3rd to accelerate past, and suddenly the engine jolted and the power was gone. the car failed to start again after that although while trying to turn it over it just never fired up. other observations  i saw was when i popped the bonnet there was smoke escaping the oil cap.

A friend has mentioned that this could be an earth problem at the gearbox. However a garage has said its the turbo with a price tag of just under 900.

Has anyone experienced anything like this? or anyone able to offer some help?

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2016, 05:59:58 PM »
Sounds like an odd one to me.

First port of call would be getting codes read.

Initially I cannot see turbo causing it to not start up.

You will have some vapour from oil filler when engine is hot.

Whip off the top timing cover and check condition of belt sounds possible it could have snapped/slipped?

Offline redbull2k

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2016, 06:08:46 PM »
i had the car dropped off at the garage on my way home. ill go there and see if they left it outside. i too am not confident its the turbo,  the car would have run in limp home mode is that correct?

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2016, 06:12:34 PM »
As above, check the basics first- if it was still cranking over after the incident then the engine hasn't seized- might be worth confirming that the engine still physically turns over, then check the timing belt tension/ condition to see if a tensioner pulley or the water pump pulley is flapping around in the breeze. Are the oil/ coolant levels ok? Any evidence of oil spewed out anywhere?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 06:13:46 PM by insanitybeard »
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Offline redbull2k

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2016, 06:19:28 PM »
it was cranking but not turning over. it was hard to check accurate level of oil as it was still hot i will check this later,  no evidence of anything spilt. when i had my girlfriend to turn the ignition while i observed i dont recall seeing the belt move.

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2016, 06:26:07 PM »
How does it sound when cranking,does it sound normal or spinning faster and easier type sound?
Unless timing cover is off you won't see belt moving.

What's the mileage and do you have any history of belt change?
Dropping a couple of cogs then it died certainly sounds like belt gone to me.
Depending on failure mode of turbo you could get severe lack of power,oil burning etc.
In the past I have seen a Vauxhall with seized turbo that caused shaft to shear and engine still started and idled just would not rev much

Offline redbull2k

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2016, 06:37:49 PM »
i had the water pump and timing belt done last year,
cranking sounds quicker but possibly due to it continuously cranking, overall though i would say normal, mileage is about 140,000

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2016, 06:42:59 PM »
Best plan of action is codes read and timing belt cover off to check the belt.
There's always a chance one of the rollers,tensioner or belt have failed so best not to keep cranking until sure it's ok. I have also known belts to shred if tensioner was tensioned opposite way.

Offline redbull2k

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2016, 02:35:00 AM »
i got to the garage and run the scan for faults on all modules. while checking i decided to take a look under the bonnet, and saw that they had removed the air filter housing and some pipe work. i noticed what appeared to be mist/soot from possibly the turbo up by the egr, i did let the scan finish and there was nothing in there(of importance) other than maf sensor, abs and reverse parking sensor.

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2016, 07:48:20 AM »
The maf code is probably due to air box being out while scanning.

You couldn't locate the source of the sooty deposits just that it was evident around egr?
Have they said what is actually wrong with turbo or just that it needs changing? I still fail to see how a turbo fault will stop it starting up. Even if turbo is totally shot I would imagine engine would still start even if it ran like an absolute dog.

Was you able to pop the clips for top timing cover and check belt as air box already out?

Offline Mirez

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2016, 09:35:45 AM »
Yeah I agree with that, turbo failure is highly unlikely to cause the engine to fail to start. Cambelt would certainly be my first port of call to rule out,
03 Ford Galaxy 1.9 TDI 115 Ghia in Spruce Green Metallic
With cream leather interior, Full Bodykit, Remapped at 145bhp, Lowered on 18's
14 VW Tiguan 2.0 TDI 177 AWD R-Line in Deep Black Pearl
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Offline redbull2k

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2016, 12:49:50 PM »
I have spoken to the garage to inquire is it definitely the turbo, he said that they got the car to start yesterday but the turbo was spraying and their conclusion is that i need another turbo, it probably explains why i saw the mist/soot.

i cant work out though how it has broken as when it was driven home there were no signs of loss of power, hissing, or black mist/soot.

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2016, 01:28:52 PM »
It sounds very strange dropping gears and demanding max boost if VNT in turbo was sticking could cause limo mode but not failing to start. Also a scan should have shown a deviation fault code

I fail to see how a knackered turbo can stop it running especially as no abnormal noises when it was running. If you are not able to take a good look yourself I would be thinking about a 2nd opinion from a vag specialist to see what they think

Offline Mirez

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2016, 01:43:28 PM »
When you said:

 
... and suddenly the engine jolted and the power was gone.

What actually happened? Limp mode or complete engine shut down?
Also what was the ABS fault code?
03 Ford Galaxy 1.9 TDI 115 Ghia in Spruce Green Metallic
With cream leather interior, Full Bodykit, Remapped at 145bhp, Lowered on 18's
14 VW Tiguan 2.0 TDI 177 AWD R-Line in Deep Black Pearl
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08 Ford Transit 2.2 TDI 115 in Frozen White
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Offline insanitybeard

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2016, 02:03:48 PM »
Also, you said:

it was cranking but not turning over............ when i had my girlfriend to turn the ignition while i observed i dont recall seeing the belt move.

You need make sure that the engine, i.e crankshaft and camshaft are turning over in unison. You wouldn't normally see the cambelt rotate unless you had the timing belt covers removed but if the alternator belt isn't moving when the engine is cranked over then you've got a problem completely unrelated to the turbo!
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline Jim Redmond

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2016, 02:46:35 PM »
If the Turbo spilled it's guts, is it not possible that the engine is hydraulically locked from oil? Just a thought

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2016, 03:07:12 PM »
Not beyond the bounds of possibility I suppose but that would have had to be a major failure for the turbo to dump enough oil into the cylinders through the inlet tract to cause a hydraulic lock! If anything I would have thought the engine might have started to run away on it's own oil!
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline redbull2k

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2016, 03:28:39 PM »
The light that comes up on the dash intermittently could be either the abs or brake system, it is yellow and not red. I dont recall seeing the abs or the ! in the circle.
the car completely lost power with no limp mode.

The scan showed no codes for turbo, i used the auto scan for all controllers using vcds lite. The abs code and parking sensor said short to ground. is that an earth problem? i do not have a mechanical mind to know about crankshaft camshaft, only observations that i have made.

the garage did say the turbo is right messed up in the bounds of possibility as i did hear him say i would need oil and a filter

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2016, 04:24:22 PM »
If it's hydraulically locked up from oil in bores then it wouldn't spin on the key.
You say lost all power but no limp mode,do you mean engine was still running but would not rev up or it shut down completely when incident happened and you had to coast to side of the road?

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2016, 04:28:50 PM »
Unless it had blown out the cylinder block although that's looking unlikely at this point! However the O.P has suggested that they couldn't observe the alternator belt moving with the engine being cranked, if this is correct then something is obviously wrong mechanically.
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline redbull2k

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2016, 04:45:54 PM »
Unless it had blown out the cylinder block although that's looking unlikely at this point! However the O.P has suggested that they couldn't observe the alternator belt moving with the engine being cranked, if this is correct then something is obviously wrong mechanically.
thats correct i did not see any moving parts. The garage did say they got the car to start before diagnosing a turbo, from speaking to him earlier he said the turbo was a right mess. which says to me they have visually seen it.

If it's hydraulically locked up from oil in bores then it wouldn't spin on the key.
You say lost all power but no limp mode,do you mean engine was still running but would not rev up or it shut down completely when incident happened and you had to coast to side of the road?
lost all power, no limp mode and engine completely cut out (not running), and coasted to side of the road.

Offline Mirez

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2016, 04:57:46 PM »
Humm, if no aux belt rotation during crank then:

1) Crank not turning
2) Aux belt snapped
3) Something seized on aux driveline

Since the turbo is unrelated to the above, double check the above as else its a serious engien issue.
03 Ford Galaxy 1.9 TDI 115 Ghia in Spruce Green Metallic
With cream leather interior, Full Bodykit, Remapped at 145bhp, Lowered on 18's
14 VW Tiguan 2.0 TDI 177 AWD R-Line in Deep Black Pearl
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With retrofitted everything except another slidey door! :)

VCDS HEX/CAN - Scans/Coding done in Wiltshire in exchange for winegums! :)

Offline redbull2k

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2016, 05:17:34 PM »
The garage told me they got the car started so i guess points 1,2 and 3 are not an issue(unless they have some good bypass techniques). its hard for me to believe the turbo is at fault, where i had no symtoms to begin with(no limp mode,hissing,mist/soot) can there be anything else that can brake the turbo from the symptoms. drop from 5th to 3rd to overtake, the engine jolted complete engine cut out with no limp mode, and upon trying to restart the car it just cranked repeatedly. i heard nothing popping ,banging, snapping.

I see a turbo on ebay for 110 ill prob go for that option

Offline Mirez

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2016, 05:22:14 PM »
I wouldn't belive everything they tell you until proven, if your auxiliary belt isn't turning then you are wasting 110.
03 Ford Galaxy 1.9 TDI 115 Ghia in Spruce Green Metallic
With cream leather interior, Full Bodykit, Remapped at 145bhp, Lowered on 18's
14 VW Tiguan 2.0 TDI 177 AWD R-Line in Deep Black Pearl
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VCDS HEX/CAN - Scans/Coding done in Wiltshire in exchange for winegums! :)

Offline redbull2k

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2016, 05:40:00 PM »
the problem i have is getting the car elsewhere and the cost involved with that.

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2016, 06:51:43 PM »
Personally I would not be getting a turbo replaced on those symptoms I certainly wouldn't be trusting what garage has said this far either.

Dropping 5th-3rd should not blow a turbo that has given no signs of distress,even if turbo did fail catastrophically for some reason car would not cut out and reuse to start unless it seized after consuming the contents of the dump.

The garage want to charge 900 for turbo change you should seriously consider spending 50 on a local recovery firm to pick it up and take somewhere else.

Offline suffolkadam

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2016, 09:12:02 PM »
mate as all the others have said on here it aint gonna be a blown turbo. the car would not fail to start for a dodgy turbo it would start have lack lustre acceleration and probably smoke its tits off.but it would start. do yourself a big favour and go to the garage and ask them to show you the engine running cos you just cant believe it?. if they are a reputable garage and not trying to rip you a new one they shouldn't have a prob with showing you it working.I would want to manually turn that crank by hand before doing anything else. if the engine was able to turn over but was turning faster with a different sort of noise would probably suggest loss of compression.. maybe injector has popped out?? others might have something to say on this? this would stop it starting. also how old was the air filter?? i work on engines that use something called a chalwyn valve or a amot device which shuts off the air to the intake side thus shuts the engine down and then stops it restarting. just wondering if anything in your air box could have caused it on hard acceleration. probably soot around the turbo was always there and you just aint noticed it. 

Offline redbull2k

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2016, 09:33:07 PM »
I had the car serviced about 4 weeks ago. im going to do something because im finding it difficult to believe the turbo has gone.

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2016, 09:45:18 PM »
The vw engine has the anti shudder valve that stops it running if it's closed, just wondering if it's worth trying to hold that across while cranking in case there is a fault with that? (Once timing is confirmed ok)
 The anti shudder is part of the egr housing.

Offline redbull2k

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2016, 07:10:06 PM »
just an update, i have had the turbo out of the car and the inside, is right messed up. At-least i know i need a turbo, can anyone confirm for me the turbo part number as 038253019h its a vag part number. I have seen others listed for 130 asz with a garret turbo, i believe these are listed incorrectly and are for the lesser powered tdi.

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2016, 07:36:13 PM »
If the turbo internals have broken up then I strongly recommend you make sure that the cylinders, valves etc haven't been damaged by debris entering the inlet/ exhaust tracts- does the engine still rotate by hand without any nasty noises? Can't help with the part number BUT to the best of my knowledge the turbo fitted to the 130/150PS TDI's differs from the 115PS version in that the air charge outlet pipe from the compressor wheel housing on the 130/150PS turbo has a cast/ integrated 'elbow' which locates the charge pipe via a spring clip and metal 'sleeve' on the end of the charge pipe- the elbow is visible as the aluminium 'neck' on the left hand side of the turbo in the picture in this  [eBay] listing. The turbo fitted to the 115PS TDI's does not have this elbow to the best of my knowledge, the charge pipe simply slides onto a machined 'stub' on the compressor wheel housing, like this.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 07:38:07 PM by insanitybeard »
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Offline johnnyroper

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2016, 07:51:59 PM »
As above the 115 does not have the elbow on compressor housing.
Can you get any other numbers off turbo like the manufacturer one?
It should have a plate on it somewhere

Offline redbull2k

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2016, 10:24:14 PM »
off the turbo casing i got 54431015073, but i will have to take another look 2moz at the blue plate on the turbo
here are the attachments off my turbo.

thanks for clearing up the difference between engine sizes.

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2016, 11:22:04 PM »
So what's happened to the turbo? Have the bearings collapsed and minced up the turbine/compressor wheels against their casings? I may be wrong but I reckon as long as you get a replacement Galaxy (or Sharan/ Alhambra!) turbo from an ASZ / BTB engine with the extended outlet for the charge pipe (such as the one I linked earlier from ebay) you should be ok, I'd be surprised if the turbo's fitted to the ASZ (130PS) and BTB (150PS) engined TDI's were any different.
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Offline redbull2k

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2016, 09:28:48 AM »
this is what happend. i cant make out all the part numbers off the blue plate.

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2016, 10:16:10 AM »
That's a bit knackered!

You want a borgwarner BV39-47 turbo for your 130bhp model

Offline redbull2k

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2016, 11:39:41 AM »
thanks for that. one other thing you may be able to help as im trying to source it all myself, i need to get the pipe that goes from, oil cooler to top of turbo. any help in identifying the part number? or correct part name

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2016, 11:46:43 AM »
The pipes are all shown on this parts diagram, as always though I wouldn't 100% rely on the numbers quoted, though it generally serves as a good guide. Also, if the diagram is to believed, the same model turbocharger was fitted to both 130 and 150PS TDI's from build date May 2004 onwards (Ford part no. 1365669).
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Offline johnnyroper

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Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2016, 02:41:07 PM »
Vw part number is  038 145 771L (the last digit might be different now) 30 ish last time I had one.

Or you could go with a braided one that is easier to fit and also remove in future.

http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/braided-oil-feed-line-for-1-9-and-2-0-tdi.html

Offline alial

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  • Spec: 2002 1.9 tdi sport
  • Region: Scotland
  • Country: United Kingdom
Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2016, 04:33:04 PM »
hi..have you managed to secure replacement turbo?if not then i have 1 from alhambra 2004 ..bought last year just in case mine will give up 1 day, ..if you interested buying it then i will check its part number. thnx

Offline redbull2k

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  • Posts: 44
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  • Model: Galaxy Mk2
  • Spec: 2004 TDI 130PD
  • Region: South Wales
Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2016, 06:33:45 PM »
i believe i have found the part that goes from oil cooler to top of turbo(038145771ag), i have already bought a re manufactured one. just out of curiosity how much would you have sold it for?

Offline johnnyroper

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  • Posts: 2949
  • Thanked: 148
  • Model: Galaxy Mk2
  • Spec: 02 tdi 115 ghia
  • Region: South West
  • Country: United Kingdom
Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2016, 07:48:51 PM »
That will be the pipe the ag part is just mod status usually.

Personally I would advise a braided one as they are so much easier to fit and if removed again it's just new copper washers. The factory ones are a nightmare as the fitting in turbo turns so pipes usually crack if removed.

Offline redbull2k

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  • Model: Galaxy Mk2
  • Spec: 2004 TDI 130PD
  • Region: South Wales
Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2016, 08:15:07 PM »
the part has already been posted.

Offline alial

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  • Posts: 49
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  • Model: Sharan Mk2
  • Spec: 2002 1.9 tdi sport
  • Region: Scotland
  • Country: United Kingdom
Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2016, 10:26:51 PM »
no bother m8... thnx

Offline redbull2k

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  • Posts: 44
  • Thanked: 0
  • Model: Galaxy Mk2
  • Spec: 2004 TDI 130PD
  • Region: South Wales
Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2016, 01:40:40 PM »
anyone know how many hours does it take to replace a turbo at a garage? start to finish

Offline johnnyroper

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  • Posts: 2949
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  • Model: Galaxy Mk2
  • Spec: 02 tdi 115 ghia
  • Region: South West
  • Country: United Kingdom
Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2016, 02:10:17 PM »
I would estimate 3-4 hours start to finish for straight turbo change.

Offline redbull2k

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  • Posts: 44
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  • Model: Galaxy Mk2
  • Spec: 2004 TDI 130PD
  • Region: South Wales
Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2016, 05:23:20 PM »
thanks for that. it appears the oil feed pipe i got is wrong, somehow this is the part that came off 038145771ae. i have also found some info that this part has been replaced by 038145771R, the bad thing though it doesnt say anywhere its for the galaxy

Offline johnnyroper

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  • Posts: 2949
  • Thanked: 148
  • Model: Galaxy Mk2
  • Spec: 02 tdi 115 ghia
  • Region: South West
  • Country: United Kingdom
Re: is it my turbo?
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2016, 10:53:24 AM »
Have you tried a vw dealer with that part number? They should be able to match it against a sharan 130bhp which will be the same for the galaxy

 

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