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Author Topic: No power to good auxiliary pump  (Read 426 times)

Offline Ian Harman

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No power to good auxiliary pump
« on: December 19, 2019, 03:13:02 PM »
Hi folks hoping someone has a solution to my problem. So ive just replaced my auxiliary heater its running fine but i found it only runs when revs are higher than 1500 due to overheat. Checked the auxiliary pump on the bulkhead found it wasn't running with ignition on or engine running. Assumed it would be the brushes but after removing it put 12v on it and its fine. So had to refit it. Checked the voltage on the looms pump plug got earth but no 12v. So im suspecting its not a broken wire checked all the fuses there all there and have continuity so fine. Im guessing its a relay but there is a few and i cant find any info anywhere on the net to tell me which and tracing wires from the pump back is daunting.

The only thing i can think to do is disconnect the battery and putting 12v down the pump plug then testing for it at each relay. Hoping some good fellow might be able to save me from that.

Online johnnyroper

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Re: No power to good auxiliary pump
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2019, 03:39:13 PM »
I think it is relay k245 that controls the pump, ideally you need a circuit drawing to trace the wiring as it sounds like either wiring damage or relay fault to me. Maybe someone on here has access to circuit drawings?

Offline brianh

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Re: No power to good auxiliary pump
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2019, 04:36:04 PM »
These should help, I'd look at fuses f18 and f34 as well. If these aren't quite right, it may be that I've picked the wrong varient, but this is from TIS which is Ford based, and only covers upto early 2003 on the Galaxy family.

It does confirm its the relay Jonnyroper suggested though, the second one should give you enough info to locate it (somewhere on one of the rear two panels of the fusebox, by the looks of it I'd say the middle level your needing to look at).

If you want further info then drop a reply back and will see what I can do. If you look at my recent posts, you should find one of them has the pdf printout of the circuit diagrams for this system, that may help a bit more, sadly you can't click the linked bits like you can in TIS to see more details etc.

Offline brianh

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Re: No power to good auxiliary pump
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2019, 04:37:01 PM »
PDF version located and attached again.

Online johnnyroper

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Re: No power to good auxiliary pump
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2019, 09:57:11 PM »
Going by that drawing itís a fairly simple circuit locate relay k245 check for 12v at coil and switch input that proves fuses and connection from fuses,switch ignition on do you get an earth at relay coil,if yes is there 12v out? If no trace earth wire back to PCM. Not sure what criteria PCM needs to fire run on pump in to life,I would assume it needs coolant up to temp or you would think the run on pump would be directly wired to an ignition feed rather than PCM controlled?

If it all checks out relay end then you are looking at a break in wiring from relay to run on pump.

Offline Ian Harman

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Re: No power to good auxiliary pump
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2019, 08:35:22 AM »
Much appreciated just the info i was looking for at least now i know where to start. Shall try and give it a look and a poke today think its most likely a relay. It was working this year but surely enough just in time for me replacing the aux heater it stopped. I will have to put a little post up on how ive modified the heater to stop it baking its ecu help folk in return:)

Offline Ian Harman

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Re: No power to good auxiliary pump
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2019, 09:29:20 AM »
So this is my relay first level does this look right?

Offline Ian Harman

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Re: No power to good auxiliary pump
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2019, 09:32:02 AM »
Next level

Offline Ian Harman

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Re: No power to good auxiliary pump
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2019, 09:42:14 AM »
Ok so first level found the correct relay ran power to the pump and it runs but there is no current switching the relay with the ignition on. So its getting power but not being switched on. The pump did run origionaly with the ignition on. My assumption is that this pump should run regardless of temperature because it feeds the rear heater therefore should just be switched from an ignition feed not a sensor. Would this be right?

Online johnnyroper

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Re: No power to good auxiliary pump
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2019, 09:49:20 AM »
So you put a feed on contact output and pump ran which proves wiring.

At relay coil have you got 12v from the fuse? The relay is energised by a switched negative from PCM going by that drawing so you need to check them with ignition on to determine if relay is at fault or loss of feed or neg

Offline brianh

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Re: No power to good auxiliary pump
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2019, 05:33:37 PM »
On the petrol 2.3 I have, it runs for what I'd guess is around 10 minutes after switching the engine/ignition off regardless of temperature.

As above - the negative is where the switching is done by the PCM, which is slightly harder to test for. Would suggest you rule out the relay first by identifing the pins involved, and checking it operates as it should do. There should be a diagram on the top of the relay showing which contact does what (sadly TIS isn't showing that level of detail on this bit). But you should be able to connect the two pins shown with the coil (the righthand pair on the drawing) by the numbers shown on the relay, then check if you have a circuit on the other two pins. If you don't (and you'd need to identify the right pins by the relay itself) then the relay is probably your issue (which would be a result, as that at least is easy to change)

If your struggling with it and anything is printed on the relay, take some photos of it and post them here, may be able to guide a bit further then.

Don't know what that relay looks like, but is it one of the ones that has other ones with the same part number on it? If so, could be simpler still to rule it out (swap it with one on a working circuit and see what happens).

Offline daddyfixit

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Re: No power to good auxiliary pump
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2019, 06:35:05 PM »
Heres a thought; doesn't the pump start AFTER the engines switched off to prevent after-boil ?  in which case the live feed will only be there for a couple of minutes assuming that the ignition has firstly been switched on, then off ?

Online johnnyroper

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Re: No power to good auxiliary pump
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2019, 06:39:34 PM »
No pump runs all the time ignition is switched on and then runs for 5-10 minutes after switching off on the 115 engines. I think 130 it only runs when ignition on there is no run on feature.

Offline Ian Harman

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Re: No power to good auxiliary pump
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2019, 06:58:29 PM »
So all the fuses are tested all the wiring from the relay 12v main and all the earths are fine i can power the pump with the relay out from its 12v feed even the swapped the relay with one of the others that matched still nothing. The trigger wire from the pcm to the relay was putting out 2.5v with the ignition on and the same with engine running which is odd. I cant see why pcm would want to switch the pump off especially as the pump it's self doesn't show in diagnostics.

 Car runs flawlessly no other issues its well maintained and all the other electronics work. Engine temps good oil temp good outside temp accurate ac cuts out at its correct low outside temp.

No engine fault codes in vcds either. Is pcm within the ecu? I think i might have to look at measuring blocks in vcds see if there is a sensor out of wack.

My engine is the 140pd so the pump doesn't run on it's just there to keep the rear warm and assist the 5kw aux heater with coolant flow.

So
Not fuses
Not relays
Not pump
Possibly pcm or wire to pcm

Considering running 12v to the relay trigger from another relay.

Offline Ian Harman

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Re: No power to good auxiliary pump
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2019, 07:02:47 PM »
By the way thank you all for your input you know your stuff hopefully what im saying makes sense its not easy fixing a car from two ends of a keyboard. Lol

Offline brianh

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Re: No power to good auxiliary pump
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2019, 07:25:56 PM »
So all the fuses are tested all the wiring from the relay 12v main and all the earths are fine i can power the pump with the relay out from its 12v feed even the swapped the relay with one of the others that matched still nothing. The trigger wire from the pcm to the relay was putting out 2.5v with the ignition on and the same with engine running which is odd. I cant see why pcm would want to switch the pump off especially as the pump it's self doesn't show in diagnostics.

Considering running 12v to the relay trigger from another relay.

I'd suspect the PCM (which is just a different term for the ECU really - Powertrain Control Module) is faulty by your testing above, it sounds like either a bad component, or possibly something as minor as a dry joint inside the ecu itself or other cause of bad connection.

I'd be inclined to do as you suggest above if it was me, as I don't see you have much other option short of opening up the ecu (and I'd be inclined not to do that in your case as it might cause more problems than it would solve)

Its not going to draw a lot of power at any rate - if you can find another relay or switched circuit you can use, that might be your best shot. You don't really need control over it, so no need for a switch on the circuit beyond the ignition circuit itself.

If you can find a spare fuseway on the board with switched live, it may be possible to pickup from there instead.

Online johnnyroper

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Re: No power to good auxiliary pump
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2019, 10:02:16 PM »
Just remember to cut and insulate the PCM trigger wire then connect relay side of it to a good ground. Coil power wire same again cut and insulate fuse side then connect relay side to an ignition feed.

Offline vpavlov

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Re: No power to good auxiliary pump
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2019, 08:52:16 PM »
Hello.
If you have a 130PS PD or 140PS PD or 150PS PD then the relay you are looking for is the one numbered 449 on the first picture - the one on the second row from bottom to top - to the right.
There are four wires on the bottom of the relay:
- black/yellow (1.0 mm2) - energizes the coil - gets + when the ignition is on
- brown/green (0.35 mm2) - energizes the coil - gets ground from injection control module in the engine compartment
- red (0.5 mm2) - + to the power contact in the relay
- green (1.0 mm2 or 1.5 mm2) - + from the power contact to the auxiliarry pump.

With the ignition Off there is a + on the red (0.5 mm2) wire.
All the other wires are not energized or grounded eith the ignition OFF.

With the ignition On there is + on the black/yellow, there is ground on the brown/green and the relay is energized conducting + from red to green.

All this applies to the aforementioned engines.
With the AUY relay 430 is controlling the auxiliarry pump, but lloking to the pictures this is not the case.

All of the above information I got from:
https://mikrob.ru/viewtopic.php?t=195268&p=3992862&hilit=449#p3992862

Click on the  ASZ управление двигателем...

Thanks.

 

 

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