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Author Topic: Run On Pump- Heater over temp  (Read 9854 times)

Offline TOURER23

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Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« on: December 29, 2013, 08:59:50 PM »
Changed the brushes today on the run on pump------ quite a challenge.

Anyway I think it is now working as it makes a buzzing type sound when the ignition is on.

Done a check on the vag com after clearing the old fault codes and it Is still showing heater over temperature as a fault. The booster heater came on  and appears to be working.

 

Any ideas why I could still be getting this fault code ?

 

Thanks

 

Paul

Offline Chrispb

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2013, 09:13:55 PM »
Does the fault code come back straight away before heaters up to temperature?
The model heater fitted to the later MK2 does suffer with faulty controller logging odd error codes, if it's working OK leave it be but you may have further problem in the future
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspächer booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

With VCDS lite (full version) need a code clearing or want to scan for faults in the north kent area, PM me.
All for a pint of Strongbow.

The FordMPV.com Forum - The free forum for questions and answers relating to the Ford Galaxy, S-Max and C-Max

Offline SilverBeast

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2013, 09:19:35 PM »
I suggest you clear the faults and monitor the outputs in VAG-COM while the heater warms up (parked of course).  You may see what's overheating there.  It may be a fault in the wiring or the temp sensor within the heater.  They are also prone to the fat red wire feeding power to the heater breaking. Power supply fluctuations may cause it to throw up error codes.

If you have the later D5Z-F Auxiliary Heater then these are prone to controller board failure. Mine did but my Fault codes alternated between Glow Plug Open Circuit and Glow Plug Short Circuit

Offline TOURER23

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2013, 09:27:05 PM »
The vag com that I have is a basic one and doesn't have the capability to measure outputs.
At least the run on pump is now working, but there is obviously something not right .
I cannot ignore the fault codes as it will probably produce a flame out code after 5 overheats.
 :(

Offline TOURER23

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2013, 09:30:52 PM »
Just thinking whilst I had the scuttle panel ,etc taken off I couldn't find a temp sensor by the wiper linkages.
What problems would this throw up if is missing ?
Would it show a heater over temp fault ?

Offline SilverBeast

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2013, 09:49:11 PM »
The temp sensor by the wiper linkage is effectively an on/off switch that enables the heater when the air temperature gets to about 10-12 C.

It's connected to the wiring harness and clipped to the back of the wiper linkage so not easy to see.
1854-0

Here it is with still clipped to the wiring which is detached from the linkage. It's the gold bit.
1856-1

If your heater is working with outside temperature above 15C then someone may have removed it an d bridged the connection so it runs all the time.

To answer your question this sensor will NOT cause an overheat fault.  I believe even the basic VAG-COM lets you view the live outputs (I know 409-1does).  If not try downloading the latest version of VCDS-LITE that should let you do it with your existing lead.  The over heat fault it is showing is all within the heater (if it is indeed overheating) and is I believe usually caused by the water not circulating.  I guess it may also be caused by the blower fan stopping too, or possibly a blocked exhaust.

Offline SilverBeast

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2013, 10:37:11 PM »
Here's a picture of the chambers and sensors on my faulty D5Z-F

1860-0

I believe the overheat signals come from the exhaust chamber sensor which is the one with the two thin brown wires going to it in the sooty crescent shaped chamber on the left of the shot.

The big one in the middle with the fat brown/white wires is the Glow Plug (or Glow Pin as it is called on the newer models)

The fattish brown/black wires on the left go to the blower fan motor.

The two sensors on the left are I believe the inlet and outlet water temperature sensors (not sure which is which they actually sit next to each other near the inlet hose).  The bigger round one with the o-ring and the black wires sits in the water flow the other flat one seems to use the temperature conducted through the metal of the casting.

Offline TOURER23

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2013, 10:22:34 AM »
Many thanks for the useful info.
I have checked the vag com last night and this morning and no fault code found. Left the engine running for 10 minutes, heater fired up but temp gauge remained on zero.
For some reason it takes a long time for the car to warm up whilst the engine is ticking over with car on drive. I suspect that when I drive it and the temp goes up to 90 degress that this is when the overheat fault will kick in.

Offline Chrispb

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2013, 10:37:40 AM »
It's possible you still had air in the system when you had the last overheat code, check coolant level again and after a run recheck for code.
With car ticking over your still looking at 15 mins depending on ambient temp and how fast your heater blowers are going as they will be cooling the coolant.

You can experiment with this, time the warm up to 90degs with the heater blowers turned off, you will find it considerably quicker than with the blowers on.
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspächer booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

With VCDS lite (full version) need a code clearing or want to scan for faults in the north kent area, PM me.
All for a pint of Strongbow.

The FordMPV.com Forum - The free forum for questions and answers relating to the Ford Galaxy, S-Max and C-Max

Offline TOURER23

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2013, 09:58:31 PM »
It seems that when the car reaches the 90 temp that this is when the heater over temp fault code kicks in. When the engine is ticking over from cold on the drive it doesn't produce a fault code, but neither have I waited long enough for the temp to go to 90 either.

I think I will just have to cancel the fault code before it reaches 5 every time and shows flame out, but even this can be cleared.

I am no expert in taking the actual booster heater apart to check for anything else. I assume this is where I need to go next according to silverbeasts reply as something is still causing this annoying fault code. I am now beginning to wonder if the brushes are ok, but the pump does make a noise with the ignition on.

I am now totally confused and would be grateful for any further positive advice

 :( :( :( :( :(


Offline Chrispb

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2013, 11:45:42 PM »
Can you confirm when you start the engine from cold and the air temperature is below 10degs the booster heater fires up (sounds like a jet engine) do you hear this sound?
If you do hear this does the heater run continuous until the engine reaches 90 degs without stopping

If the heater keeps shutting down and firing up again a few minutes later the coolant is not being pumped through the booster.

Also the rear passenger heater, when the engines up to temperature if you turn the blower on full does the heated air start hot and gradually get cooler, if it does coolant again not being pumped around.

You can see temperatures in VCDS using measuring blocks, you should see the combustion temperature around 300 deg the coolant temp passing through heater and the engine temperature.
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspächer booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

With VCDS lite (full version) need a code clearing or want to scan for faults in the north kent area, PM me.
All for a pint of Strongbow.

The FordMPV.com Forum - The free forum for questions and answers relating to the Ford Galaxy, S-Max and C-Max

Offline TOURER23

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2013, 03:17:16 PM »
Done a vag-com test today with the measuring blocks.

GRP 1 Voltage 13.20  Temp 30   Temp 10   Temp 8

The above just staring from cold. The booster kicked in at 100

After a few minutes voltage 13.5  Temp 270  Temp 30  Temp 70

Everything seems to shut down then slowly and the voltage goes off -reading below.However, when i turn the engine off and onto ignition only i can hear the run on pump making a noise even though no display on the voltage.

GRP 1 Voltage- blank  Temp 100   Temp 29  Temp  58

Checked for fault code and heater over temp again. Cleared fault code and voltage display came on again.
Also when i turn engine off and then back on voltage display is back on, but it seems to go off when temp is about 100 if that makes sense.
Even though the temps came down the rear heater was still blowing constant hot air and this did not seem to change.

It seems that the booster heater warms the engine up to about 70 and then shuts off. Also it appears that the run on pump does shut down, but kicks back inti life after turning engine off and then back on or clearing the fault code. I just wonder if the ECU is sending out a duff fault code as the booster heater and run on pump seem to work up to a certain temp.

I am now more confused than ever and would be grateful for any further positive advice

Offline TOURER23

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2013, 03:20:43 PM »
One other thing i forgot to mention, with the engine ticking over from cold temp goes up to 70 after about 15 mins and then it goes back down- never reaches 90 only when actually driving the car will the temp reach 90 !!

Offline SilverBeast

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2013, 03:42:57 PM »
Voltage reading in VAG-COM is not supply to the run on pump. That should be running all the time the engine is.  My voltage display doesn't come on if heater fan is not running. I'm not sure but I think it is the voltage supply to the blower fan built in to the heater.

Offline Chrispb

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2013, 03:57:45 PM »
Am just wondering have you ever removed or lowered the heater down? reason being it seems the coolant flow through the booster is to slow and we're assuming the run on pump is pumping because you have heard it and the rear passenger heater is not going cold I;m thinking the hoses going to the heater may be kinked restricting the flow.

The hoses going to the heater are shaped to fit in the confined space, if they have been removed and not replaced correctly when the heater is bolted back up they can get trapped and/or kinked restricting the flow.

And as silverbeast said the run on pump is powered all the time engines running and cannot be viewed in Vagcom/VCDS
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspächer booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

With VCDS lite (full version) need a code clearing or want to scan for faults in the north kent area, PM me.
All for a pint of Strongbow.

The FordMPV.com Forum - The free forum for questions and answers relating to the Ford Galaxy, S-Max and C-Max

Offline TOURER23

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2013, 04:54:36 PM »
Thanks all.
Is there a quick way of checking the hoses

Offline Chrispb

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2013, 05:16:51 PM »
It's very tight for space, you may be able to see with a torch but I have my doubts.
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspächer booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

With VCDS lite (full version) need a code clearing or want to scan for faults in the north kent area, PM me.
All for a pint of Strongbow.

The FordMPV.com Forum - The free forum for questions and answers relating to the Ford Galaxy, S-Max and C-Max

Offline SilverBeast

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2013, 08:01:23 PM »
Here's a picture of the hoses fitted to my D5Z-F with it off the car.
1878-0

and fitted back to the car
1880-1

As you can see most of the hoses are over the top of the heater and obscured by the beams running front to back on the shell

Offline TOURER23

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2013, 09:52:48 PM »
Thanks looks like a job for my mechanic.
Will  let you know.
Happy new year to you both.


Offline TOURER23

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2014, 02:47:41 PM »
Mechanic has checked the hoses into the booster heater -says it is working ok.
I just checked the run on pump with the ignition on and there was no buzzing noise heard. I gave it a little shake and it kicked back into life. Switched ignition off and on again and checked the pump and it was off again. Gave it a little wiggle and it switched on.
I  don't know if it a loose connection somewhere or the pump is knackered, but thought it would be ok after changing the brushes.

Any thoughts (apart from having to buy a new pump )
 >:( >:(

Offline Burtie

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2014, 05:03:30 PM »
Perhaps if you changed the brushes yourself could they be sticking as the run on pump on my car was not working all the time but if I tapped it then it would work so I changed the brushes in mine took me ages but managed it,
You can plainly hear like a gush of water when you turn the ignition on that is all you can't hear it pumping all the time but when you turn the ignition off you can't hear the pump you have to open the bonnet and put your hand on the pump you can feel it running that was in my case anyway but then my hearing is not that great

Offline Chrispb

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2014, 06:33:23 PM »
Paul

You obviously still have a problem with your pump, are you sure the brush springs are in position? also just to advise when you have a 130 engine the pump will stop immediately you switch off, only the 115 engine carries on for 3 minutes after switch off.
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspächer booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

With VCDS lite (full version) need a code clearing or want to scan for faults in the north kent area, PM me.
All for a pint of Strongbow.

The FordMPV.com Forum - The free forum for questions and answers relating to the Ford Galaxy, S-Max and C-Max

Offline TOURER23

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2014, 12:09:21 AM »
Thanks. I've seen a refurbished run on pump with 12 mths warranty on e-bay for £39.95.
Might buy it and give it a go as I don't really want to start messing about with the brushes again.

Regards

Paul

Offline TOURER23

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2014, 04:59:18 PM »
The plot thickens !!!
Purchased the refurb pump from e-bay and fitted it today. The pump works ok and does not appear to work intermittently like my old one which is something positive. The car heats up ok, nice and warm and the booster heater kicks in when it should. However, I am still getting the temp over heat 01410 fault code. I have taken the cap off the water reservoir and it made a little hiss so there was some air in the system. I have cleared the fault code, but this 01410 keeps on showing.
I am wondering whether the ECU or some sensor is sending spurious readings to the vag com.
I am tempted not to check for any more fault codes and leave it go over the 5 and see if there is a flame lock out.

Any ideas ?? :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2014, 05:25:43 PM »
Could it be the seemingly fairly common D5Z-F internal ECU fault? Yours isn't logging the same fault codes as mine (Glow plug short circuit & glow plug open circuit) but maybe the ECU in the heater is playing up, as it apparently likes to on this model of heater!  ???
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline TOURER23

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2014, 05:39:00 PM »
Thanks, so do I just ignore it as I do not want the expense of having to buy a new booster heater as everything appears to be working ok at present.

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2014, 05:49:36 PM »
If it seems to be working reliably at the moment it might be worth letting it go and just see if the overtemp fault code causes it to lock out/shut down, mine hardly ever works- and when it does there's no pattern to it, I fear it needs total replacement (the ECU part being not much cheaper than a complete unit!)  :'(
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline TOURER23

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Re: Run On Pump- Heater over temp
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2014, 06:51:27 PM »
I agree as there are no other options. I think I will have to cancel after 5 codes or a lockout.


 

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