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Author Topic: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues  (Read 1411 times)

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #100 on: September 13, 2020, 10:30:31 PM »
Fairly sure all 8v PD lumps use same timing gear and locking tools,however with the crank lock you have it will never line pointer on crank up with tool anyway as pointer on sprocket is within the groove and tool is not matched. Seem to recall my lock is opposite to yours? Will have a look tomorrow.

I think either way with the pressurising the head needs to come off so you got some time to confirm for sure before itís rebuild time.

If timing is out like that it would certainly account for the poor running I suspect.

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #101 on: September 13, 2020, 10:34:19 PM »
Just like in ref library this is same tool as mine for the 1.9 so BRT must be a different sprocket, still looks out of time though.

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #102 on: September 14, 2020, 07:52:44 AM »
Thanks for that, I don't recall it not lining up when I did the Galaxy and the tool I've ordered lists the BRT but not the AUY whereas another tool listed the AUY but not the BRT so definitely think there is a difference.  It's a shame I won't be able to lock the crank in but at least I can use it for alignment purposes.  Will hopefully get the head off this afternoon to shed more light on the saga  ;D

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #103 on: September 14, 2020, 08:59:29 PM »
The head is off - I can't see any cracks on first inspection, possibly some signs of leakage on the block side from the rear of cylinders 2 and 3 and I'm a little suspicious about the bit between 3 and 4   I dont think its the first time its been off as the the 80 grit witness marks on the head would indicate someone has had a go before  ::)  Was trying to get an idea of how true the head was but it was a little difficult on the floor on my own so may clean it up a bit more tomorrow and have another look at that.

With regards to the timing with it in the position that it looks incorrect and the cam locking tool fitted in is actually true TDC, I will have a look with the new locking tool when it arrives but I'm now second guessing that unless the valve timing is set up just before TDC.  Does anyone know if the crank sprocket is keyed?

I need to measure the protrusion of the pistons, it already seems to have the maximum thickness gasket so if that is correctly specified then skimming is not an option I believe.

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #104 on: September 15, 2020, 06:53:47 AM »
Thatís certainly been off before going by the emery marks.

1,2 and 3 look iffy at the back and between 3 and 4. I donít think I would be taking any chances with that head either needs testing or replacing in my opinion.

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #105 on: September 15, 2020, 08:18:03 AM »
Yes, I think several people have probably been chasing faults on this car for some time given it 7 previous owners, limited mileage in recent years, the cracked heater matrix had clearly been leaking for some time and everything I touch shows evidence of someone messing around before me  ::)

I don't have a lot of faith in that head, time off the road is not good so I think I will just look for a replacement, a pre built unit would be a lot more convenient as everything is being don on the drive.

Any recommendations?

These two are on the list to give a call to, anyone used them?

https://www.excelengineservices.com/cylinder-head-volkswagen-65-221521-01c-2157-p.asp
https://www.autotechcylinderheads.com/cylinder-heads/recon-cylinder-heads/volkswagen-20-tdi-diesel-reconditioned-cylinder-head-sk1036-00083.html

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #106 on: September 15, 2020, 10:22:36 AM »
Either looks fine to me never used those places before though.
Donít forget new injector seals,hold down bolts and rocket shaft bolts as they are single use. Also injectors need setting in head perpendicular or you run risk of injector/head damage.  Ideally you want a big set of vernier calipers but I used a set of feeler gauges on the flat side to make sure it was square against the face of head.

Use correct tool to fit injector seals aswell or the seals could twist. Vw tool T10056, I have these if you want to pm me your address you can have them as I no longer own a PD engine car.

Finally donít want to teach a granny to suck eggs and all that but injector lash requires setting up aswell. Turn engine so rocker fully down,screw adjuster in until resistance felt then back off 180 degrees and lock off.

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #107 on: September 15, 2020, 10:50:50 AM »
Thanks Johnny, that would be fantastic, happy to make a donation or pass on to another forum member after.  Any tips and pointer are gratefully received, I served a mechanics apprenticeship back in the late 80s before changing career so am comfortable with the spanners but cars have moved on a lot since then and certain tasks require certain procedures but with the lack of a technical reference like I had with Ford's TIS I'm reliant on the internet for information which can be a fantastic resource or a glut of misinformation which has to be verified.

Am phoning round for info on the heads at the moment.  With regards to the timing there are indeed two different tools, my new one arrive today and it looks as though the timing may not have been so far out as I thought although VCDS did show it at -5.5 and with the broken locking lug I suppose it would have been easy to have been a few degrees out so all I can do for the moment is sort the head which should resolve the coolant issues and reset the timing and go from there.  I may try to effect a repair on the locking lug with some JB weld.

This guy explains the tools best.
https://youtu.be/J8HybemS_RY

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #108 on: September 15, 2020, 12:17:38 PM »
No donation needed for them, they have been sitting in tool box for a few years doing nothing.

I think even with broken lug you should be able to get the crank timed up, the torsion value is probably as a result of someone moving sprocket in past when doing a belt and just leaving it. I tend to slack the 3 bolts to fit belt and then line bolts up centrally in holes and check angle. Then adjust as required

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #109 on: September 15, 2020, 07:45:40 PM »
So went with the one from Autotech Cylinder Heads which comes complete with camshaft and should be here tomorrow.  Haven't really achieved much today apart from ordering the head/bolts/gaskets and cleaning the engine bay and block face which could do with another going over but I ran out of wet & dry so will finish that tomorrow and stripping the injectors and loom out of the old head, will probably use the injector loom from the galaxy as that was only replace in January and the rocker cover looks an absolute pig to remove once the inlet manifold is back on as there is very limited access to one of the rear bolts - happy to hear from anyone that's done that and what tool they used?

Tomorrow will pick up some more bits and pieces and start cleaning up all the other parts until the head arrives

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #110 on: September 15, 2020, 08:47:54 PM »
Tried to pm you but your inbox is full. I will post the injector seal tools out to you after work tomorrow afternoon.

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #111 on: September 15, 2020, 08:56:37 PM »
Thanks Johnny, I just looked and I had 7 messages all dating back to 2013/2014, I don't think I've ever had a notification of PMs being received.  All cleared out now and will have to keep an eye on it in future.

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #112 on: September 16, 2020, 07:24:04 PM »
New head came today, was busy with paperwork though so only really got round to cleaning a load of bits up.  Took some pics and rough measurements on the old one, they would have been more accurate but the battery was flat in the vernier calipers.

Comparing to the new one the injector lobes quite flatted and worn approx 1mm compare to the new one.  Valve lobes worn between 1mm and 2mm and the cam followers are nearly deep enough to make a breakfast bowl out of.  Oh and I think the bearings are past their best.

Injector seals probably not going to be here until Friday, not sure if I'll fit the head and do them after or wait and fit them first - knowing my luck I'll drop the spline bit down the oilway or something.

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #113 on: September 16, 2020, 08:37:43 PM »
Hopefully once back together it will run sweet as a nut, posted deal tools today 1st class so should be there when you get the seals.

Think you made right choice getting a built up head as the cams and lifters are usually worn in those engines.

Offline SirDavidAlhambra

  • Sir David Alhambra.
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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #114 on: September 17, 2020, 03:59:14 PM »
This is so exciting, it's way out of my depth technically speaking but I feel like I'm learning so much from this, thank you all!

 [GL]
I drive a Seat Alhambra 1.9Tdi which has 115bhp and an automatic gearbox.

I am happy to help you with all your questions. I am not a qualified mechanic but seem to be better at fixing my car than even the most experienced garages.

I have lots of friends here and very much enjoy talking with you all.

Always remember, a motor car is a serious tool and should be treated with respect. Put your safety first, always.

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #115 on: September 17, 2020, 09:14:12 PM »
Exciting?  I beg to differ on that terminology David  :D  Although my credit card company is probably quite excited at all the funds going out  :'(

Not a great deal of progress today either, ordered more bits and pieces for refitting, cleaned the piston tops, installed the injector loom from the Galaxy into the new head plus exhaust studs and brackety things from old head, finished cleaning all the bits up and tried to organise them in the back of the car ready for refitting.  Also checked injector part numbers are correct as there are many variants and given the evidence of people messing around I didn't want to take anything for granted.

Johnny, the seal tools arrived today, thank you muchly - you still need to let me know what postage was please?  And inf anyone want them in the future then I'l happily pass them onto another member.

Decided to wait and fit the injectors first before bolting the head down.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 09:16:14 PM by barlidge »

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #116 on: September 17, 2020, 10:11:19 PM »
Glad they arrived safe and sound,apologies they need a clean I used them and just fired back in tool box several years ago and forgot to give a wipe over. Honestly no need to worry about postage. As I said people on here have done me a good turn in the past so just passing that on.

Offline SirDavidAlhambra

  • Sir David Alhambra.
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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #117 on: September 18, 2020, 07:24:33 AM »
This handy sounding tool sounds very useful!

Canít wait to see this lovely Alhamb back on the road!

 grouphugg
I drive a Seat Alhambra 1.9Tdi which has 115bhp and an automatic gearbox.

I am happy to help you with all your questions. I am not a qualified mechanic but seem to be better at fixing my car than even the most experienced garages.

I have lots of friends here and very much enjoy talking with you all.

Always remember, a motor car is a serious tool and should be treated with respect. Put your safety first, always.

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #118 on: September 18, 2020, 08:15:55 AM »
Thanks again johnny.

Does anyone have any links to the run on pump wiring?  I had noticed before mine wasn't working, tested it off the car and still dead so probably needs brushes.  I had swapped it with the working galaxy one which still didn't work so tested the feed with the engine running and no feed.  As a temporary measure I had rigged up a temporary direct feed to the pump which I had been manually switching on and off which worked but inconvenient.  While I've got space to work it would be nice to try and trace the fault as its going back together.  I believe the later versions are slightly different as some don't run on after the engine is switched off but not sure where the feed comes from.

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #119 on: September 18, 2020, 11:47:25 AM »
I did have a drawing for that before but canít for life of me locate it now. I seem to recall power originates from BCM but canít remember if it energises a relay or if direct from BCM. Sure someone on here will have a drawing though.

Offline brianh

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #120 on: September 18, 2020, 08:42:00 PM »
Here you go, closest I can manage. May have changed for the later models as this is from TIS though.

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #121 on: September 19, 2020, 08:46:27 AM »
Cheers Brian, I'm now wondering if the run on pump in later versions is inactive while the climate module is turned off which it was a few times as the load made a difference to the poorly running engine, its very possible I tested the feed while it was turned off  ::)

Another slow day yesterday which several phone calls interrupting progress but the head is at least on the block albeit not torqued down.  Injectors all resealed and all fitted in the head and lined up as best as possible with feeler gauges as per Johnny's suggestion earlier and the seal installation tools he sent me made life very easy.  Haven't done the backlash yet as figure it will be easier to mount the dial gauge when the head is fixed to the block, anyway I best get on lots to do ...

Offline brianh

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #122 on: September 19, 2020, 10:13:52 AM »
Might be an idea to hook up a visible indicator to see when its running. I'd suspect it may run differently on the later models as you suggest, unfortunately the copy of TIS I've got only covers the older models.

It may be worth switching the rear heater on and to hot to see if that effects it, only dealings I've had with mine is on the 2.3 petrol where it runs all the time and for a few minutes after stopping engine regardless.

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #123 on: September 19, 2020, 07:16:04 PM »
only dealings I've had with mine is on the 2.3 petrol where it runs all the time and for a few minutes after stopping engine regardless.

That's how mine used to run on the Galaxy but some forum posts seem to suggest the behaviour was modified to avoid over cooling, good shout on the test light, I'm sure I can rob a bulb holder from the old Gal and rig something up  ;D

 :'( :'( The gift that keeps on giving ...  :'( :'(

Unfortunately not so good new on the head, only got as far as torquing the head bolts, front cam seal, rear timing cover, idler and tensioner - went to fit the cam pulley and started tightening the bolt expecting the camshaft to spin but that was a big fat no, seized in both directions.  I had spun it after fitting the injectors to check for clearance but not after fitting the rocker shaft as the adjusters were all backed off pending adjustment later.  so working backwards, discounted the cam seal and undid the rocker bolts which freed it up - I think it the No.1 cam cap but it could be a compound effect of several.  Rocker bolts were torqued to 20nm + 90 degrees.  If the cam caps are secured directly on the the head I'm not sure how this is possible unless the cam/shells are out of spec.

I have retorqued the bolts to 20nm with no+90 degrees and it's still spinning but I'm not 100% sure its as free as it should be, I really don't want to risk snapping a stretch bolt by retorquing fully.  Managed to speak to the head supplier, he said he's had this about a year ago and that customer undid the bolts and retorqued and all was fine  ???

Anyway, long story short he's sending me replacement rocker bolts for Tuesday and has advised probably best not to go ahead with fitting anything else in case the head needs swapping, which he seems willing to do if needed.  I did offer to remove the cam to see if anything was obvious but he didn't seem to think that would be beneficial and as its possibly a warranty situation I guess I have to go through the steps he dictates.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 07:19:11 PM by barlidge »

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #124 on: September 19, 2020, 08:36:00 PM »
Not having much luck with that engine are you?
Seems odd that it spins fine but when rocker torqued down itís seized,does sound like an issue with cam caps to me being pulled down funny with the rocker shaft.

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #125 on: September 19, 2020, 08:49:55 PM »
Not having much luck with that engine are you?
Seems odd that it spins fine but when rocker torqued down itís seized,does sound like an issue with cam caps to me being pulled down funny with the rocker shaft.

No unfortunately I'm not, but the only through a problem is to just keep working through it I believe.  I would like to pull the cam caps off but unless he gives me the nod then I guess I have to go through the steps one by one - one theory I have is the sealant that is applied to the outer caps between the cap and head, my thought is if too much is applied prior to the shell being fitted then it could pack the shell out - I did put that to him but he discounted it on it being an anaerobic sealant - not convinced that makes a difference.

I'm living in a vague hope that torquing it a second time with new bolts will yield different results but my logical self is not convinced at all.  My only saving grace is not much has been fitted before I spotted it.  I was quite meticulous regarding the torquing of all the stretch bolts and certainly took my time to make sure it was correct and was quite happy with the feel of them all as they went down so on that front its a little dissapointing.

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #126 on: September 19, 2020, 10:13:53 PM »
I canít see replacement bolts will make a difference personally but as the head is under warranty you have to follow the steps he suggests as frustrating as that is.
I canít imagine sealant under cap would cause it either due to bearings already being in cap and head when sealer applied,any excess would go on journal rather than under shell. And in that case I would say cam would still turn rather than lock it up? Be nice to be able to whip it off and have a look though. By sound of it seller will sort it out whatever the issue is though

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #127 on: September 23, 2020, 06:45:59 PM »
The replacement bolts came yesterday, firstly just nipped them up so everything was sitting home, then simply worked worked one stage, first to 20nm then 45į then another 45į.  The only thing I did differently was to rotate the camshaft between every turn of a bolt.  Took a little while but at the end of it the camshaft was still turning so I'm relieved but still a bit baffled.  Injector lash also all set up, the cam pulley lent itself nicely for a base for the bag dial indicator gently held down with one bolt  :)

Rain stopped play today but hopefully over the next few days will get the weather/time to get it all back together.

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #128 on: September 23, 2020, 06:48:13 PM »
Very odd they new bolts sorted it, canít explain that one. Oh well at least itís ok now and you just got to stick it back together.


Hopefully no more issues and itís plain sailing from now on

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #129 on: September 23, 2020, 07:58:22 PM »
No, there must have been something off first time round but no idea what. 

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #130 on: September 26, 2020, 04:51:43 PM »
So it's finally back together and running again with no more drama, it does indeed drive like a different car and so far, the cooling system appears to be functioning properly.  Have only done around 30 miles and while the hunting has mostly gone away it did still do it a couple of times quite randomly in different gears on acceleration, nowhere near as badly as before, it does it for a couple of seconds and then normal again.

I still have the diesel purge to run through it and the torsion angle still seems quite far out so will adjust that but to be honest I think I could live with it as it is now and just accept the occasional blip as a character trait.

Offline SirDavidAlhambra

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #131 on: September 27, 2020, 09:16:40 AM »
This has got to be one of the best outcomes ever!!

You are all so knowledgable and good at this stuff!! So impressive!!

Another MPV saved from the yard.

 clapping and jumping [WAVE] balloons balloons grouphugg [YES] [YES] [GJ] [cool] woohoo balloons
I drive a Seat Alhambra 1.9Tdi which has 115bhp and an automatic gearbox.

I am happy to help you with all your questions. I am not a qualified mechanic but seem to be better at fixing my car than even the most experienced garages.

I have lots of friends here and very much enjoy talking with you all.

Always remember, a motor car is a serious tool and should be treated with respect. Put your safety first, always.

Offline barlidge

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  • Posts: 145
  • Thanked: 2
  • Model: Sharan Mk2
  • Spec: 2.0TDi 2007
  • First Name: Bruce
  • Region: East Anglia
  • Country: United Kingdom
Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #132 on: September 29, 2020, 07:29:19 PM »
Not sure its saved yet David.

Having got to do some more miles in it the hunting is still there as before, that seems to be a pattern, whenever something gets changed initially it seem better soon reverts but that could also just be my interpretation or driving style.

Diesel purge is next on the list, some clear pipe due today for that job.  Tweaked the torsion today, its sitting at 0.5 dropping to 0 on revving so that's close enough for now.  Back to basics now, I think the next option is to just swap out all of the vacuum pipes, they all checked out before but its cheap and totally eliminates another possibility and there were the unexplained blips in the vacuum.  I had swapped the tandem with the galaxy one but that didn't make any difference and now the original is back on with new seals.  I would also like to swap the servo check valve just so everything vacuum is eliminated.


Offline johnnyroper

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  • Posts: 2994
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  • Model: Galaxy Mk2
  • Spec: 02 tdi 115 ghia
  • Region: South West
  • Country: United Kingdom
Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #133 on: September 30, 2020, 12:02:25 AM »
How gutting all that work and itís still hunting. Have you done a log with maf and fuelling aswell to see what they are doing when it plays up?

Offline barlidge

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  • Posts: 145
  • Thanked: 2
  • Model: Sharan Mk2
  • Spec: 2.0TDi 2007
  • First Name: Bruce
  • Region: East Anglia
  • Country: United Kingdom
Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #134 on: September 30, 2020, 05:16:23 PM »
I know, I have to admit its pretty demoralising, not so much for the time aspect but the money aspect is spiralling with no end in sight, I suppose on the positive at least I have the tools and am able to do the work myself.  The head had to be done either way as the cooling system was becoming non functional and at least that seems stable now, although I do wonder if running the way it is possibly contributed the the HG failure which is something I don't want to repeat.

I could really do with a good link for measuring blocks numbers and their descriptions, some are quite obvious but others not so and the links I'm finding are not tying up with my VCDS but I did take some more logs today and also found a log view which makes reading them quicker and easier.

Groups 010, 011 and 013

7188-0
7190-1
7192-2

One more positive thing I forgot to mention, the gear change now seems to be fully sorted  ;D  While the head was off and it was all dismantled I noticed two things, the black and white caps on the rear of the linkages were not clipped on and also there was a cooling pipe missing its retainer clips which I think caused it move around and interfere with the linkages. Rectified those and did another reset procedure and its good as gold now, I did take the cap off and check for play - there was a little but when trying to fit the shim it was not enough to allow the circlip back into its groove even when pulling the shaft forward so that's safely stored and maybe I'll try it again in a year or so.

 

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