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Author Topic: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues  (Read 2470 times)

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #150 on: January 09, 2021, 03:36:27 PM »
Good work, fingers crossed you've got the issue finally sorted! And I'm sure that all the useful images and information you've provided in this thread will prove useful to others.  [GJ]
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #151 on: January 09, 2021, 05:05:54 PM »
Thanks Paul, I really do hope so.  Unfortunately Euro's had the wrong cooler, on their one the pipes come out of the side whereas the one fitted come out of the top and is physically much bigger in size so going to have to wait until Monday when GSF open.

In the meantime I've turned my attention to the Aux heater and getting that working and the coolant up to full temps can only aid the flushing process.  I was just reading a thread in which I think you swapped the later d5z-f for the earlier D5w, do you have any details on the differences on the multiplug.  The fitted d5z is showing internal memory error and from what I understand they are prone to ECU failure.  My old D5w just needs a glow plug.  I have quickly checked the connections at the plug underneath and am showing three lives present but it was starting to get dark and cold so left it for today.

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #152 on: January 10, 2021, 10:55:11 AM »
No, unfortunately it wasn't me that swapped the later D5Z-F type heater for the earlier D5W-Z, somebody else may have though and be able to assist/confirm?

I did depot the old ECU from my D5Z-F as per this thread but didn't resort to substituting the earlier model heater. I can't imagine that the wiring has been substantially changed though, in the first instance it may be worth comparing the two multiplugs to see if they've been changed from one model to the other, if so they can with a bit of a fiddle be dismantled and you could probably swap one for the other.

More discussion here.
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #153 on: January 10, 2021, 06:11:25 PM »
Thanks Paul, must have misread the thread.  Comparing the two plugs they are almost identical, same pins used with the same colour/size cores, the only difference seems to be the retaining catch on the side of the plug but that can be resolved with a little self amalgamating tape.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to get it working today, the sticking point seems to be the air temperature signal wont switch on with either heater.  Have tried it with the temp sender wires shorted out and with the sender itself plugged in which was also tested to provide a closed circuit at ambient temperature and then going open circuit when held in the hand for a few mins to warm it up.  With the older (Galaxy) heater I was able to perform output tests on both the blower fan and dosing pump so that side of it is working.  On the original (Sharan) heater output tests don't do anything but that's not surprising as I suspect the ECU is faulty but VCDS does connect to it and its show a difference in state on the Progr Timer measuring blocks and displays its Memory Module Error fault code.

As its the same on both heaters I think I must be missing something obvious or there is another condition that hasn't been met.  At this stage I only have the heater on the floor and just want to see it begin its start-up phase before I bolt everything in so the system doesn't have any coolant in it and reading Mirez's excellent guide on the heater it apparently shares a coolant sensor with the ECU so am wondering if the system disables it in a low coolant state.

One thing that is confusing me is in Mirez's guide under the Electrical circuit section is states that 12v should be present on pin 5 via the air temp sensor but in the diagram it shows it as pin 6 - I have continuity between pin 6 at the heater plug underneath and the air temp sensor under the bonnet so I think that must be a typo.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 06:13:27 PM by barlidge »

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #154 on: January 10, 2021, 10:47:27 PM »
Wey hey!, bypassed the coolant pipes from the oil cooler and with a few minutes of running I had oil dripping out from underneath ...

Off to get a new one.

Might get myself a lottery ticket tonight - feeling lucky  ;D


Just checking emails and saw this, cant complain  ;D


Offline SirDavidAlhambra

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #155 on: January 10, 2021, 10:54:33 PM »
Not bad at all.

Congratulations on your winnings!

 [cool]
I drive a Seat Alhambra 1.9Tdi which has 115bhp and an automatic gearbox.

I am happy to help you with all your questions. I am not a qualified mechanic but seem to be better at fixing my car than even the most experienced garages.

I have lots of friends here and very much enjoy talking with you all.

Always remember, a motor car is a serious tool and should be treated with respect. Put your safety first, always.

Offline TFG

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #156 on: January 11, 2021, 11:15:56 AM »
@barlidge - brilliant detective work on the oil cooler Bruce  [GJ]. Chapeau. If it's the same as the oil cooler on mine (a '57 plate Alhambra 2.0TDi, so of similar vintage) the oil cooler is Nissens p/n 90655 (not 90608, which has the hose spigots emerging from the side of the cooler and 'crossing over'), or NRF p/n 31168.

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #157 on: January 11, 2021, 09:37:52 PM »
Not bad at all.

Congratulations on your winnings!

Thanks David.

 [cool]
@barlidge - brilliant detective work on the oil cooler Bruce  [GJ]. Chapeau. If it's the same as the oil cooler on mine (a '57 plate Alhambra 2.0TDi, so of similar vintage) the oil cooler is Nissens p/n 90655 (not 90608, which has the hose spigots emerging from the side of the cooler and 'crossing over'), or NRF p/n 31168.

Thanks and yes that's the one, and a right little sausage it is to get the pipes back on if using the existing spring clips, I did think about changing them to jubilee's but once they are on I prefer them.  Picked up one from GSF this morning, all fitted and have started flushing the system - I think that will be a good game played slowly - fill it, run it around for a bit and then drain and refill, probably have to repeat many times, a glug of jizer and dishwasher tab seems to convert the oil to a nice runny brown soup consistency, I wish I had a hot water tap out front to try and help flush it through.

Aux heater working now, it seems the 12v feed into the ambient air temp sensor is intermittent, no idea why and also still have no 12v feed to the run on pump, problems for another day and they are both now fed from a temp supply direct from the battery via an inline fuse, will just have to remember to put the fuse in and take it out until I sort out a better solution switched inside with a time delay relay for the pump.

To change it over to the earlier version - the plugs are the same with the exception of the retaining clips on the side.  The bracketry, coolant pipes and air intake pipe need to be swapped from the doner vehicle and the exhaust will need some sort of retaining fixing making up as the original bolted to the bracketry that has been removed and I cant remember where the doner exhaust bolted to as the Galaxy has gone to scrapyard heaven now but glad I took all the associated Aux heater bits off it before it went.

Time will tell if there is anymore permanent damage cause by the loose injector but it seems good so far.  Will get it flushed over the next few days and then it will be back to the hunting issue

TBC . . .
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 09:45:03 PM by barlidge »

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #158 on: February 04, 2021, 09:10:51 PM »
Time to update this on going issue and yes, I can almost hear you all groaning :)

Pressure tested the pipework from the airbox all the way through, yes there is a slow drop but it sounds like its coming from the throttle body which would normally be open when this issue occurs.  I may revisit this later with the addition of smoke but at the moment and with the results below I don't think its a pressure leak.

Next I flushed the intercooler, really didn't want to remove it so did it in situ with a cocktail of Jizer, fairy liquid and 3 dishwasher tabs.  Lots of flies got washed out and some oily residue but I don't think it was enough to get concerned about, left it flushing for about 18 hours.  This also goes some way to confirming the pressure test above as if there was any leaks in the intercooler or the pipework to and from it there would have been some drips on the floor over that time period.

Have also changed the MAP sensor as this was the last thing that hadn't been changed and I know I have said it before but this has made some difference - only a small degree I think to the hunting but without doubt it has improved the fuel consumption which was quite bad and the acceleration in the lower rev range.

Also finally got round to changing all the vacuum pipes and non return valve, this hasn't made any difference at all.  Also tried the old galaxy tandem pump again as last time I tried it was before changing the head and finding lots of other issues, not sure but maybe a slight deterioration but not specific enough to be certain as I've come to realise just changing the load in the car can make a difference to how the hunting performs

I'm still not convinced its not a vacuum issue so next step is to put a 12v vac pump on it and possibly hobble together another reservoir although I don't think this one is leaking as when I pull the pipe off 24hrs after running its still got vacuum in it.

Vid of vac test:
https://youtu.be/hZdcOVJA3wk

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #159 on: February 04, 2021, 11:06:11 PM »
That car has certainly tested you and given what you have found and done to it I can’t help thinking the problem maybe a characteristic of the engine,maybe something to do with the map in the ECU. Very strange fault though as you have eliminated all the common issues

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #160 on: February 04, 2021, 11:15:13 PM »
As the other one I bought had very similar albeit less significant symptoms I'm also wondering, I'm just really hoping it comes down to it being over sensitive on the vac levels or a slow leak in the servo as there really is nothing else and the turbo traces speak for themselves so even if there was injector issues without an O2 sensor I don't see how that could cause the turbo to fluctuate like it does.

I did also find another thread with similar symptoms but he sold the car before resolving it.

https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/2-0-tdi-140-turbo-on-and-off-boost-vw-sharan.479771/

Its a shame as its now running quite well apart from that, has done quite a few miles since repairing the injector bolt and oil cooler, several trips to London one of which loaded with half a ton of steel plates and also a trip up to Warrington fully loaded with materials, tools and trunking on the roof rack.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 11:19:12 PM by barlidge »

Offline mike wilson

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #161 on: February 05, 2021, 11:04:40 AM »
I would be very concerned about flies in the intercooler.  There should be nothing there but clean air - with maybe the merest hint of oil mist from the turbo.  Maybe loose flies are what is causing the hunting....

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #162 on: February 05, 2021, 01:12:54 PM »
I would be very concerned about flies in the intercooler.  There should be nothing there but clean air - with maybe the merest hint of oil mist from the turbo.  Maybe loose flies are what is causing the hunting....

Thanks and yes possibly, when I say lots, I guess it was 20-30, probably been run without the air filter at some point.  Maybe that's something I need to go back to and if I can find a bit of flexible pipe the correct size bypass the intercooler temporarily.  I have had the vacuum cleaner on it both sucking and blowing though and it didn't appear to have any sign of restriction but that's not a very exact test.

So did a bit of a heath robinson job and 'fitted' the 12v vac pump on and did a few runs with different scenarios.  Although it felt slightly different on the runs the graphs say there was no real difference at all so not sure what else I can test/replace with the vacuum side of things.

7415-0

12v pump only with reservoir connected, mechanical pump and pipe blanked off.
7407-1

Mechanical pump only reservoir blanked off.
7409-2

Both pumps connected reservoir blanked off.
7411-3

Both pumps connected with reservoir connected.
7413-4

Who's got the matches? :'(
« Last Edit: February 05, 2021, 01:14:42 PM by barlidge »

Offline SirDavidAlhambra

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #163 on: February 06, 2021, 08:08:52 AM »
I am starting to feel that this car has been affected by the supernatural
I drive a Seat Alhambra 1.9Tdi which has 115bhp and an automatic gearbox.

I am happy to help you with all your questions. I am not a qualified mechanic but seem to be better at fixing my car than even the most experienced garages.

I have lots of friends here and very much enjoy talking with you all.

Always remember, a motor car is a serious tool and should be treated with respect. Put your safety first, always.

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #164 on: February 06, 2021, 11:14:28 AM »
I am starting to feel that this car has been affected by the supernatural

Agreed  :'(  To be honest I'm pretty much out of ideas on it now, I think it needs some fresh thoughts.

Offline TFG

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #165 on: February 06, 2021, 12:23:57 PM »
Did you say you'd checked all of the pipework between the turbo exducer and the inlet manifold? The intercooler looks to be in the clear.

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #166 on: February 06, 2021, 12:48:14 PM »
Did you say you'd checked all of the pipework between the turbo exducer and the inlet manifold? The intercooler looks to be in the clear.

I pressure tested it from the air box right through the turbo all the way to the throttle body, there was leakage but I could hear air escaping through the throttle body itself which I would assume is normal and in normal running would be open.  The inlet manifold was originally loose but was cleaned and refitted with new gasket and bolts torqued down when the recon head was fitted.

Vid of pressure test:
https://youtu.be/hZdcOVJA3wk

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #167 on: February 06, 2021, 12:55:49 PM »
Also did a trace on the throttle pedal output which to me looks normal:




Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #168 on: February 06, 2021, 02:10:12 PM »
WAIT!  What's this?  Nooooooooooo!  ???

Need to do a test run - be right back (after I've charged the battery that is, yet another cost ) . . .
« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 02:11:59 PM by barlidge »

Offline TFG

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #169 on: February 06, 2021, 02:50:06 PM »
What's what???!

Offline SirDavidAlhambra

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #170 on: February 06, 2021, 02:51:57 PM »
K. C. Watts is the Manager.
I drive a Seat Alhambra 1.9Tdi which has 115bhp and an automatic gearbox.

I am happy to help you with all your questions. I am not a qualified mechanic but seem to be better at fixing my car than even the most experienced garages.

I have lots of friends here and very much enjoy talking with you all.

Always remember, a motor car is a serious tool and should be treated with respect. Put your safety first, always.

Offline TFG

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #171 on: February 06, 2021, 02:56:54 PM »
I've seen something vaguely similar on a Ford Fiesta 1.4TDCi. That would surge, then lag, then surge, then lag when trying to accelerate, with a constant throttle. It urned out to be a spilt in one of the rubber pipes between the turbo and inlet manifold that had a small split in it. On casual inspection it looked fine. But the boost pressure would open the split above a certain pressure, so the car would accelerate until the split opened, then it would loose boost pressure until the split closed up again, at which point it would boost again, et seq.. On a light throttle, calling little boost pressure, it would drive competely normally.

Offline SirDavidAlhambra

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #172 on: February 06, 2021, 03:17:50 PM »
Interesting. Could we do what the tyre fitters do, spray some soapy water over it and look for bubbles my friend.

 [THANKS]
I drive a Seat Alhambra 1.9Tdi which has 115bhp and an automatic gearbox.

I am happy to help you with all your questions. I am not a qualified mechanic but seem to be better at fixing my car than even the most experienced garages.

I have lots of friends here and very much enjoy talking with you all.

Always remember, a motor car is a serious tool and should be treated with respect. Put your safety first, always.

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #173 on: February 06, 2021, 04:22:48 PM »
@Chrispb

I should have paid closer attention to this:

Just been reading about the hunting problem on another forum, a few people seem to be convinced it's to do with the clutch pedal switch, whether it be by riding the clutch pedal or a weak pedal return spring.

Chris, thanks for that link, I had a little read and did as they suggested, holding the clutch pedal up while accelerating but no difference, I may swap the switch with the one of the Gal if they are the same just as a double check.

I never got round to pulling the Galaxy one, and testing it as I did by pulling up on the clutch would not have shown an issue as there was approx a 5mm gap between the end of the pin and the clutch pedal with it in the fully up position.  The switch seems to have three positions, at one end and in the middle it kind of ratchets and doesn't return, on the third position it has a two stage spring resistance and returns all the way (better explained in the video below).  Maybe part of the installation procedure?  Regardless of which position its in I'm getting open circuit on it both depressed or fully released and it rattles so I'd say its dead.  Bridged a piece of wire over the two terminals in the multiplug and it drives almost like a new one.

Video of switch:
https://youtu.be/MgVs2g0V6Fo

And I now have a turbo trace that looks a little different to the others:

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #174 on: February 06, 2021, 06:38:24 PM »
So have you hit to the bottom of this strange fault now? Hope you have as it’s been a bit of a mission tracking it down. And if it is the clutch pedal switch what an odd fault to have with a dead switch.

Offline brianh

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #175 on: February 06, 2021, 07:01:55 PM »
I'd suspect it may not be truly dead - more likely when the car is moving along it occasionally makes contact if anything. I've had that sort of problem with the alarm bonnet switch on other cars, where you get fairly random instances of it going off for no apparant cause (usually as its starts getting colder at night) or random beeping when taking it through a carwash. The vibration from movement along the road might be enough for it to see a connection there momentarally.

Hoping hes got it cracked now though, seems positive from what has been found.

Offline barlidge

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #176 on: February 06, 2021, 07:52:16 PM »
It certainly looks like that was the cause, I did two runs first without the switch connected which it hunted as it normally did and the second with it bridged out, it was instantly a smoother car with no hunting and the trace is significantly better.

As for the switch it wasn't making physical contact with the pedal and I was getting no continuity through it in any position, I've dissected it a bit and it is indeed a two stage switch although I cant work out the purpose of having the two springs of different rates.  The rattling was the contacts that had broken off inside so it is very possible they made an intermittent connection, on acceleration at low revs it would occasionally give a jerk which may well have been that.

Offline SirDavidAlhambra

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #177 on: February 06, 2021, 09:27:04 PM »
 [GJ] [NOTHING]
I drive a Seat Alhambra 1.9Tdi which has 115bhp and an automatic gearbox.

I am happy to help you with all your questions. I am not a qualified mechanic but seem to be better at fixing my car than even the most experienced garages.

I have lots of friends here and very much enjoy talking with you all.

Always remember, a motor car is a serious tool and should be treated with respect. Put your safety first, always.

Offline Chrispb

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Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #178 on: February 06, 2021, 11:21:18 PM »
 clapping and jumping you got there in the end ;)
2016 Vauxhall Insignia Elite Nav in White 2.0CDTI Manual.
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspächer booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

With VCDS lite (full version) need a code clearing or want to scan for faults in the north kent area, PM me.
All for a pint of Strongbow.

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Offline barlidge

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  • Posts: 187
  • Thanked: 7
  • Model: Sharan Mk2
  • Spec: 2.0TDi 2007
  • First Name: Bruce
  • Region: East Anglia
  • Country: United Kingdom
Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #179 on: February 07, 2021, 08:49:20 AM »
A big thank you to everyone who has contributed, it has certainly been a journey to this point.  [THANKS] [WAVE]

One question I'm pondering is if I had found the clutch switch before I found all the other things like the loose manifold, split EGR pipe, clogged EGR, blown head gasket, worn cam, blah blah blah ...  What real difference, if any, would it have made to the running at that point?

Offline TFG

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  • Posts: 24
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  • Model: Alhambra Mk2
  • Spec: 57 2.0TDi Stylance
  • Region: South West
Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #180 on: February 07, 2021, 12:53:20 PM »
What a relief. Congratulations!!!  [GJ]

Have you got a part number on the old switch? I've just had a google for 'clutch switch' and the ones that are coming up don't have that black bit on them that you're turning in the video.

Not quite sure what purpose that selectability would serve. Something to do with cruise control, perhaps?

Offline barlidge

  • *
  • Posts: 187
  • Thanked: 7
  • Model: Sharan Mk2
  • Spec: 2.0TDi 2007
  • First Name: Bruce
  • Region: East Anglia
  • Country: United Kingdom
Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #181 on: February 07, 2021, 05:37:36 PM »
It does look like its a modified part, and judging by the date this one is the original.  Given its low mileage, 7 previous owners and all the evidence of people poking around it I wonder how long its been duff and how many people have chased it?.  GSF list one for it at just under £12 - bargain  :)

1J0 927 189F
19322013
25.10.06
05832

Offline TFG

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  • Posts: 24
  • Thanked: 1
  • Model: Alhambra Mk2
  • Spec: 57 2.0TDi Stylance
  • Region: South West
Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #182 on: February 08, 2021, 09:48:14 AM »
That's the part number I was using. Using it (or 189E) returns all sorts of variations, mostly without the turning bit. Some are listed as a clutch switch, others as a brake switch. All a bit confusing.

I tried to get on 7zap to look at this, but it's playing up; it's very slow and the links to the parts digrams pages don't work. Anyone else having this problem?

Offline barlidge

  • *
  • Posts: 187
  • Thanked: 7
  • Model: Sharan Mk2
  • Spec: 2.0TDi 2007
  • First Name: Bruce
  • Region: East Anglia
  • Country: United Kingdom
Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #183 on: February 08, 2021, 10:42:20 AM »
I think it is also used as a brake switch, the ratchet mechanism is an auto adjustment feature which supposedly sets itself on installation.  I think the barrel of the switch is supposed to turn and lock as you turn the body of the switch into into the pedal but like you I am finding very conflicting information and apparently the switch is easily broken if fitted incorrectly.  Some say fit with pedal down, some say with it in its rest position and then there is variations on the switch with info that suggest the later variation is a different installation method to the original switch.

GSF offer two variations with no info of the difference so I'm off to get one soon and will report back.

Offline TFG

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  • Posts: 24
  • Thanked: 1
  • Model: Alhambra Mk2
  • Spec: 57 2.0TDi Stylance
  • Region: South West
Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #184 on: February 08, 2021, 11:05:17 AM »
Did yours originally have four pins, or two?

Offline barlidge

  • *
  • Posts: 187
  • Thanked: 7
  • Model: Sharan Mk2
  • Spec: 2.0TDi 2007
  • First Name: Bruce
  • Region: East Anglia
  • Country: United Kingdom
Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
« Reply #185 on: February 08, 2021, 11:07:53 AM »
Just two pins, so it was easy to bridge to confirm the issue.

 

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