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Large MPVs -- Ford Galaxy / VW Sharan / SEAT Alhambra: => Ford Galaxy / VW Sharan / SEAT Alhambra => Topic started by: barlidge on August 09, 2020, 09:21:15 PM

Title: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 09, 2020, 09:21:15 PM
Ok so my old 2003 Galaxy finally threw the big ends on Friday at 266k miles, that car never broke down on me or left me stranded in the 10 years I had it and believe me it did some graft.

So on to the next adventure - not having much time I have quickly picked up a 2007 Sharan 140 SE, I expected a few problems and it hasn't disappointed:

Issue 1
On acceleration it's doing what I can only describe as hunting, the power is fading in and out as if my foot on the pedal was lightly going up and down (its not).  Acceleration is still good and better than my 115 Gal was but something is not right.  VCDS showed up EGR errors P1404 (short to ground) and P1440 (open circuit), I have removed the EGR and cleaned all the gunk off and run VCDS output test on it and it seems to function and after a 10 mile mixed drive of motorway/back roads the error codes have not come back but the hunting is still there.

[attach=1]

Issue 2
Difficulty engaging gears
So the problem is mainly 2nd, but sometimes 4th and prob once or twice 6th - the gear stick seems to go into position but the gear is not engaged, seems to be ok with the engine not running and not so bad at low speed/revs.  The clutch doesn't show any other symptom of failing and I have tried bleeding it and checked the gearbox oil level and removed the battery tray and all the linkages seem to be freely moving so could this still be a linkage issue or is it def a box/clutch issue.

Issue 3
Not so important although would be very nice to have working, aircon shows pressure switch fault P0532 (short to Gnd), the system has some pressure in it and the display not flashing but I hope the compressor clutch isn't engaging due to the fault on the pressure switch, I am planning on just swapping the switch out to see where that leads next.

Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 09, 2020, 09:46:32 PM
Issue 1 itís hard to say what could cause that without looking, have you checked measuring blocks to see whatís happening when it is hunting? Maybe run a log of MAF,MAP,EGR etc

Issue 2, sounds like gearbox end shim to me.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/amp/products/02m-02q-gearbox-input-shaft-shim-kit-and-end-cap.html

Issue3 I would disconnect the pressure switch and see that it goes open circuit rather than short to ground, but it does look like the switch has failed. Good thing is on VW you can usually replace without degassing etc as itís on a valve. I wouldnít rule out a regas though as if itís not been working for a while it could well have lost some pressure aswell.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: Chrispb on August 09, 2020, 11:27:48 PM
I have a couple of the cheap MAF sensors off a MK2 that give that hunting symptom, not saying it is that but does yours look like it may have been changed recently.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 10, 2020, 07:53:25 AM
Some extra info I forgot to put yesterday, its done 104k miles and looking back at the MOT history and by all the child car seat bits and headrests, it's only ever been used for the school run.

Issue 1 itís hard to say what could cause that without looking, have you checked measuring blocks to see whatís happening when it is hunting? Maybe run a log of MAF,MAP,EGR etc

Issue 2, sounds like gearbox end shim to me.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/amp/products/02m-02q-gearbox-input-shaft-shim-kit-and-end-cap.html

Issue3 I would disconnect the pressure switch and see that it goes open circuit rather than short to ground, but it does look like the switch has failed. Good thing is on VW you can usually replace without degassing etc as itís on a valve. I wouldnít rule out a regas though as if itís not been working for a while it could well have lost some pressure aswell.

Thanks Johnny, are those gearbox shims straightforward to fit?  Will look at running measuring blocks, only used them a couple of times, is it possible to record a session?

I have a couple of the cheap MAF sensors off a MK2 that give that hunting symptom, not saying it is that but does yours look like it may have been changed recently.

Thank Chris, the seller had dosed the airbox with shiny stuff so hard to see if it looked like it had been changed, will try disconnecting the MAF and see what happens.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 10, 2020, 09:50:20 AM
So driving into London, disconnected MAF half way, result was slightly down on power but no hunting.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 10, 2020, 08:56:44 PM
Little update, on the way home I went via GSF, picked up a MAF and AC pressure switch on the off chance. 

The pressure switch cleared that fault and the compressor clutch has is engaging, still no cold air but at least it's in a position to take it for a regas now.

New Bosch MAF sensor has made a difference, it seems quieter and smoother but still hunting on acceleration, doesn't seem to be do it when cold is something else I have noticed.

Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on August 11, 2020, 09:06:31 AM
Hello my friend.

Why not check your fuel filter. Maybe it has an air leak or a blockage!

Why not check your hoses.

Injector leak off pipes?

Boost diaphragm?

Idle solenoid?

Busbar and heaters?

Sometimes an Italian tune up can help a dodgy engine.

Failing that, give it a damn good thrashing like Basil Fawlty would with a branch u ripped off a nearby tree.

 [drive] [drive] [drive]
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 11, 2020, 09:23:43 AM
You are definitely at the stage to run some logs and see whatís happening, could be several things causing the hunting.
EGR could still be a suspect even though you have cleaned it,not familiar with the 140bhp is it a PD engine still?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on August 11, 2020, 09:26:58 AM
Would it be worth spraying some EGR cleaner through the system? If that helps, then change the EGR.

EGR works by recirculating a portion of an engine's exhaust gas back to the engine cylinders which is the mechanical equivalent of breathing in your own farts and is terrible for the engine as it makes it clog up with soot and breaks the turbo.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 11, 2020, 09:30:01 AM
He has had it off and cleaned it already so spraying a cleaner in wonít have any effect.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on August 11, 2020, 10:03:03 AM
Could it be worth checking the fuel filter
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 14, 2020, 06:40:41 PM
Have changed the fuel filter today which hasn't made any difference.  With running the logs is there a way I can record a session?  The hesitation/hunting occurs when acceleration/under load so not easy to look at the laptop.  Which specific measuring blocks should I be looking at?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 14, 2020, 07:32:52 PM
Yes you can set it to record before you head off and then when finished stop it and plot on to an excel graph so itís easier to see whatís going on.

I would start with maf,boost specified,boost actual,n75 duty and egr first to see if anything obvious sticks out as too many items on a log can be confusing. You can always do another run with different items on.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on August 14, 2020, 07:42:08 PM
I know this might sound crazy but is there any possibility there could be water in the engine.

I had a Ford once and gave the engine a steam clean and it would hesitate sometimes on the motorway. I think the mechanic also said something about the valves but I was too young at the time to understand what he was talking about

I really hope u get this fixed soon somehow

 [NE1] [GL]
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: Chrispb on August 14, 2020, 10:21:15 PM
Measuring blocks 003, 010, and 011 it's usual to do these together especially if you convert them to a graph.
You need to get fully up to temperature first, 003 specs are for idle but 010 and 011 need to be around the 3000 RPM with throttle to the floor, ideally an uphill incline try and get a good few seconds before backing off repeat if necessary a few times.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 23, 2020, 07:59:17 PM
Apologies for the delay in responding, on my first  tow with it I ended up with a passenger footwell full of hot water, turns out the plastic top of the heater matrix had cracked so spent a day and a half stipping out the dash to replace that and then fount the cooling system wasn't bleeding itself properly as it was all gunked up so cleared the blockage with an airline, ran some flush through it and it seems to be better now.

Finally got to destination with the caravan two days late - on the way home I set it up for doing some logs, there were lots of roundabouts with inclines straight after so plenty of loading on there, I have a attached the logs but not really sure how to interpret them.

Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 23, 2020, 10:04:45 PM
I might be way off track here but looking at the data in block 11 and transposing into a graph (graphs are not my thing)  Would I be correct in think the grey is required boost and the orange is actual boost?

Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 23, 2020, 10:34:16 PM
It looks that way to me as grey line is fairly constant for periods of time where orange is all over the place.  That would certainly account for the hunting as boost isnít really being controlled looking at that. Itís rising and falling constantly.

I would check the turbo vnt actuator for smooth operation and also try and temp blank egr valve off. Blanking egr will give a fault code but it would rule in or out an issue with the boost.

Also worth checking all vac pipes for splits etc and map sensor for gunk build up causing iffy readings.

Specified boost and actual boost should be fairly similar. The log you have done shows it isnít but if you could do a full throttle log in 3rd from 1100rpm up to 4000rpm that will give a better understanding or actual versus specified and how well itís being controlled.

Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: Chrispb on August 24, 2020, 05:36:55 PM
That does look very erratic hopefully Mark will see this and give an explanation, I did notice as Johnney said you need to reach at least 3000 to 3500 RPM with wide open throttle.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: Chrispb on August 24, 2020, 06:42:31 PM
Just been reading about the hunting problem on another forum, a few people seem to be convinced it's to do with the clutch pedal switch, whether it be by riding the clutch pedal or a weak pedal return spring.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 24, 2020, 07:06:49 PM
Ok, was at work today but at lunch took the MAP out to give it a clean, it wasn't gunged up but I gave it a good spray with some IPA and a blow out - while taking it out I noticed one of the screws wasn't the correct one and was just in the hole for show so I replaced it with one that tightens up but although the engine seems quieter the hunting is still there.  When I got home I changed it for the one in the old Galaxy (115), slightly different part number but it fitted and so did a run, interestingly the hunting is very much more noticeable with the Galaxy MAP than the original so I did two runs one with the original and one with the Galaxy MAP which are attached below.  The graphs attached are just of the section that is foot to the floor in third from around 1500 to 4000 RPM, both on the same roundabout exit road going up a slight incline.

Hopefully tomorrow I will get chance to check the boost mechanism but my feeling is its too rythmic for sticky vanes.  Whats the purpose of the clutch pedal switch? this one doesn't have cruise control.  Can I disconnect it to give it a try?  Will also blank off the EGR when I get chance.

Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on August 24, 2020, 07:29:41 PM
Wow that looks terrible, it would drive me nuts if my car was surging like that.

Whenever Iíve had problems like that Iíve tended to put in a double dose of redex and give the engine a dam good thrashing. Might be worth a try?

One of the more technically minded people on here might have a more scientific suggestion, maybe something to do with injectors or something technical like that?

 [NE1]
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: Chrispb on August 24, 2020, 08:04:31 PM
Ok, was at work today but at lunch took the MAP out to give it a clean, it wasn't gunged up but I gave it a good spray with some IPA and a blow out - while taking it out I noticed one of the screws wasn't the correct one and was just in the hole for show so I replaced it with one that tightens up but although the engine seems quieter the hunting is still there.  When I got home I changed it for the one in the old Galaxy (115), slightly different part number but it fitted and so did a run, interestingly the hunting is very much more noticeable with the Galaxy MAP than the original so I did two runs one with the original and one with the Galaxy MAP which are attached below.  The graphs attached are just of the section that is foot to the floor in third from around 1500 to 4000 RPM, both on the same roundabout exit road going up a slight incline.

Hopefully tomorrow I will get chance to check the boost mechanism but my feeling is its too rythmic for sticky vanes.  Whats the purpose of the clutch pedal switch? this one doesn't have cruise control.  Can I disconnect it to give it a try?  Will also blank off the EGR when I get chance.


Ok, was at work today but at lunch took the MAP out to give it a clean, it wasn't gunged up but I gave it a good spray with some IPA and a blow out - while taking it out I noticed one of the screws wasn't the correct one and was just in the hole for show so I replaced it with one that tightens up but although the engine seems quieter the hunting is still there.  When I got home I changed it for the one in the old Galaxy (115), slightly different part number but it fitted and so did a run, interestingly the hunting is very much more noticeable with the Galaxy MAP than the original so I did two runs one with the original and one with the Galaxy MAP which are attached below.  The graphs attached are just of the section that is foot to the floor in third from around 1500 to 4000 RPM, both on the same roundabout exit road going up a slight incline.

Hopefully tomorrow I will get chance to check the boost mechanism but my feeling is its too rythmic for sticky vanes.  Whats the purpose of the clutch pedal switch? this one doesn't have cruise control.  Can I disconnect it to give it a try?  Will also blank off the EGR when I get chance.


A lot of cars have switches on  the clutch pedal regardless of whether it's got cruise control. It reduces the torque available when using the clutch for a smoother gearchange.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on August 24, 2020, 08:44:02 PM
Interesting. So is it possible that if this clutch switch were malfunctioning, wobbling on and off, the car could be Ďwobblingí a little bit when it comes to how much power is being put out? Hence the speed dips a bit when it powers down a little because of a random erroneous input from the clutch switch then it throttles back up again to compensate for the loss of power as the speed stops dropping while throttle position remains constant or when the switch wobbles back into the previous position, that sort of thing?

A very curious phenomenon... what sort of sum would our hapless Sharan owning friend be looking at if he were to get this curious switch changed? Is it a job he could do himself with parts off ebays maybe?

 [GL]
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 24, 2020, 09:34:29 PM
Seems a strange fault to be caused by clutch switch,I would expect the requested boost to drop rather than staying rather stable. The difference in boost with the 2 different MAPís is quite substantial.

The actual boost doesnít ever reach overboost it reaches the requested boost level and drops off before building again. That looks to me like n75 is trying to back off the vac to vnt to keep boost stable but it is struggling to control it so boost drops too far and then ECU tries to build it again.

Defo concentrate on turbo control side of things vnt,vac pipes and n75

Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: Chrispb on August 24, 2020, 11:27:36 PM
Link to another forum
http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php/104648-surging-when-accelerating
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 25, 2020, 07:27:05 AM
Just had a read if that,itís crazy a clutch switch can cause erratic boost. Certainly worth trying the things mentioned in that thread to see if it makes a difference.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 25, 2020, 10:12:41 PM

Dave, it is a little annoying on longer journeys but keeping the driving style moderate its not as noticeable.

Chris, thanks for that link, I had a little read and did as they suggested, holding the clutch pedal up while accelerating but no difference, I may swap the switch with the one of the Gal if they are the same just as a double check.

Johnnyroper, all the vac pipes that are visible appear to be intact as far as I can see, I cut a piece of coke can out today and placed it alongside the gasket on the pipe leading into the EGR valve housing but that made no difference and strangely didn't bring the engine management light on.  Have checked turbo mechanism with a hand held vacuum pump, it seems to move freely - see video below.

I'l check to see if the N75 is the same on the Gal and if so swap that out as a trial.

One thing I did find while underneath which I'm seriously wondering if it's the cause, there is a small pipe (pic below) leading from the exhaust manifold that I noticed had soot round it, on idle it is leaking so I'm thinking when the engine is under load its behaving a bit like wind from a bumhole cuasing exhasust pressure fluctuations as it opens up releasing pressure then closing until pressure builds again and opening again but obviously very rapidly.  Somehow need to identify the part anyway as it needs changing.

Turbo mech Vid
https://youtu.be/Bihpr0CXj9w
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 25, 2020, 10:51:09 PM
Thatís the egr pipe and yes a leak there could cause issues with lost exhaust gasses so probably best to change that and see how it performs then.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 25, 2020, 11:08:00 PM
Thatís the egr pipe and yes a leak there could cause issues with lost exhaust gasses so probably best to change that and see how it performs then.

Yes it feeds into the EGR cooler and there seems to be many variants, I'm tempted to make another coke can blanking gasket in the interim but not sure it will stand up to the heat there.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 26, 2020, 05:47:29 AM
Probably right there a coke can is a bit thin. A baked bean can might work for long enough for testing purposes?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 26, 2020, 08:46:58 AM
Probably right there a coke can is a bit thin. A baked bean can might work for long enough for testing purposes?

Good idea, thanks :)
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: Mirez on August 26, 2020, 10:25:50 AM
Late to the party on this one! Its going over the prescribed limit when boosting, however the ECU is still able to lower the boost level before you hit the upper limit which is why its not flagging an over boost code.

The surge is because it's controllable by the ECU (as opposed to being stuck such as VNT vanes) which is why its able to reduce the power enough to come below the line. However 'the issue' isn't reacting instantly which is why you are getting this surging as the ECU increases the level of retardation and then has to reverse the effect as the boost suddenly drops away, essentially its stuck in a cycle of over and under correcting.

1) The split in the EGR pipe is a very likely candidate as it will be allowing un-metered air in/out and but because its such a small pipe, it'll be slowly enough to not be an instant reaction.
2) N75 is the next likely candidate, the ECU will be directing the valve to back off boost so if its sticky or the vac pipework to/from it has a split then that will slow the rate of change.
3) The VNT central spindle that drives the vanes could also be on the verge of sticking although less likely as normally the vanes will clog way before you experience that.
4) Finally if the turbo itself is badly worn then you'll get these symptoms as it takes longer to reach boost so again the ECU will try harder to get to boost which then arrives later then expected so it has to back off.



 
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 26, 2020, 10:31:16 AM
So orange is requested and blue is actual then, had that wrong way round🥴
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 26, 2020, 12:26:54 PM
So orange is requested and blue is actual then, had that wrong way round🥴

I could be wrong but I think what Mark meant was as soon as its delivering max requested boost its trying to back off but over correcting and then having to counter correct to bring the boost back up?

Late to the party on this one! Its going over the prescribed limit when boosting, however the ECU is still able to lower the boost level before you hit the upper limit which is why its not flagging an over boost code.

The surge is because it's controllable by the ECU (as opposed to being stuck such as VNT vanes) which is why its able to reduce the power enough to come below the line. However 'the issue' isn't reacting instantly which is why you are getting this surging as the ECU increases the level of retardation and then has to reverse the effect as the boost suddenly drops away, essentially its stuck in a cycle of over and under correcting.

1) The split in the EGR pipe is a very likely candidate as it will be allowing un-metered air in/out and but because its such a small pipe, it'll be slowly enough to not be an instant reaction.
2) N75 is the next likely candidate, the ECU will be directing the valve to back off boost so if its sticky or the vac pipework to/from it has a split then that will slow the rate of change.
3) The VNT central spindle that drives the vanes could also be on the verge of sticking although less likely as normally the vanes will clog way before you experience that.
4) Finally if the turbo itself is badly worn then you'll get these symptoms as it takes longer to reach boost so again the ECU will try harder to get to boost which then arrives later then expected so it has to back off.


Thanks Mark.

Good and bad news, I removed the pipe and the split was larger than I originally thought, so have made two replacement solid gaskets, one for each end of the pipe.  I had some old HDDs kicking around and the stainless steel covers leant themselves nicely to the cause.

The result is much better low end torque and responsiveness but the hunting is still there and if anything slightly more noticeable while driving, also towards the higher end of the rev bracket it seems to be down in power and took a lot longer to reach 4000.  I could be mistaken but the turbo doesn't look 13 years old and someone has definitely been poking around down there, the vac pipe was not routed correctly and the N75 heat shield had been a little butchered but judging by how much trouble I had getting the screw on clips that retain it off it I'm not sure its been off and it doesn't look like a new valve so for the sake of £40 I'm going to pick one up today and if nothing else eliminate that.

Pics and graph/CSV attached.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: Mirez on August 26, 2020, 12:46:02 PM
It'll be tricky, but can you see the part number on the turbo?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 26, 2020, 12:59:02 PM
It'll be tricky, but can you see the part number on the turbo?

Will give it a go with the phone camera and endoscope camera on laptop, whereabouts would it usually be?  I guess your thoughts are if its the correct turbo?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 26, 2020, 01:28:03 PM
It is usually either a plate or engraved on to the ally input housing
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on August 26, 2020, 05:26:09 PM
LOL @ using HDD covers to get a handy little metal sheet for fabrication into an EGR blanking plate.

I usually end up cannibalising things like baking trays for that purpose. I find that the £2.99 ones from Tescos are best - nice thick metal and not too much paint on them.

 LOL
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 26, 2020, 06:19:04 PM
LOL @ using HDD covers to get a handy little metal sheet for fabrication into an EGR blanking plate.

I usually end up cannibalising things like baking trays for that purpose. I find that the £2.99 ones from Tescos are best - nice thick metal and not too much paint on them.

 LOL

Needs must lol - I have to say while it might have temporarily fixed the problem of leaking exhaust gases it has accentuated the hunting problem, it feels and sounds like an angry beast, quite growly and not nice to drive over 2k revs now  Have just changed N75 so will do another run shortly, finger crossed.

It'll be tricky, but can you see the part number on the turbo?

Yep it was tricky and that involved getting in some funny angles to get and in focus shot of the numbers  ;D

03G 235 010 E which according to essex turbos is hopefully correct?

Pics
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 26, 2020, 06:30:03 PM
If the n75 donít fix it next step is vac gauge on it and check amount of vac,if vnt actuator holds vac correctly and at what pressure it operates. 3-5hg it should start to move and at 17-19 reach its max position. One would hope the turbo if itís recon was set up correctly on a bench tester but you never know.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on August 26, 2020, 07:18:17 PM
Agreed, reconditioned turbos can be a bit iffy. My own experience of recon turbos is that theyíre rarely set up properly. Despite all the BS about having the latest equipment and calibration devices, I think they usually just leave the adjustment screws where they are when they get the old unit in and give the thing a clean before selling it on to someone else. Often itís not a problem because usually the fault which resulted in them receiving an old turbo isnít related to a faulty adjustment, but on the occasion it is indeed a problem (like it always is for me for some reason), they just give u some BS about not having cleaned the manifold ports properly before u fitted it hence there is ďobviouslyĒ carbon damage and the warranty is invalid. I would always recommend a genuine brand new turbo from a proper manufacturer for that reason, not a sandblasted/cleaned up unit from a Ďmom and popí shop despite generally preferring to support small independent businesses. Once u have experienced the inconvenience of spending hours diagnosing a fault which shouldnít exist because u have already put on a ďnewĒ turbo, getting shouted at by the wife because the car keeps conking out at 65mph, doing a turbo replacement in the freezing rain a second time just because the reconditioned replacement one was dodgy, and shelling out for new pipes and seals again, and spending hours on the phone arguing with some shirty geezer who is well versed in the art of fobbing people off because he no doubt has had so much experience of doing that, u eventually swear never to use them again
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 26, 2020, 07:46:22 PM
Well it hasn't cured it but it is remarkably better than it was this morning, much smoother and only noticeable at certain points when accelerating, which  the attached graphs would seem to confirm.  I do have a hand vacuum pump/gauge but I'm not sure I would rely on it, will have a play with it and see what the readings are.

I have no idea if its a recon, I only referenced Essex turbos to look up the part number for the car - I have had one from them before though on my old Galaxy, to be fair I fitted that in 2010 at 124k miles and it was still running on there until about 3 weeks ago when the big ends went at 226k miles.  I have also heard some horror stories though  :-\
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 26, 2020, 10:29:09 PM
Looks like it is turbo related now then as you have eliminated the other stuff. A vac pump is next step as said above,also see if you can see what stop screw is set like. From memory basic set up is back off until not in contact with the arm then wind back in until it just touches and then go 1.5 turns. Vane gap should be approx 1.5mm and with full vac on the actuator at 2000rpm you want boost pressure between 2-4psi. Just link the 2 pipes on n75 to get max vac on turbo while checking.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on August 27, 2020, 07:18:49 AM
Just thought I should add that my comment about reconditioned turbos was about my own personal experiences with them generally (and not about any particular company)... I am sure there are good companies out there that do an excellent job of reconditioning them, I personally just havenít used one yet (including the one u mention which may well be great for all I know!)... knowing my luck I have just been using the less reputable ones so far Hehe

I have a hunch that the root cause of this problem will end up being the turbo, they really do start causing all sorts of weird problems when they start going wrong, itís just a shame there arenít any codes to go with yet
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 27, 2020, 09:09:39 AM
Looks like it is turbo related now then as you have eliminated the other stuff. A vac pump is next step as said above,also see if you can see what stop screw is set like. From memory basic set up is back off until not in contact with the arm then wind back in until it just touches and then go 1.5 turns. Vane gap should be approx 1.5mm and with full vac on the actuator at 2000rpm you want boost pressure between 2-4psi. Just link the 2 pipes on n75 to get max vac on turbo while checking.

Thanks, going to have another look this morning, whereabouts is the 1.5mm vane gap measured?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 27, 2020, 09:33:20 AM
You need the exhaust housing off to do that, thatís why I said the pressure you should be seeing on live data aswell to try and save you splitting the turbo.

When I had my head off I set vane gap and then tweaked it with stop screw once back up and running, with gap set it was pretty much where it should be
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 27, 2020, 10:11:40 AM
The vanes don't seem to be sticking at all (see vid), will adjust it up as Johnnyroper suggested:

https://youtu.be/vL5WRRdqkbk
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 27, 2020, 10:24:25 AM
Ignore this image, cant seem to delete it.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 27, 2020, 10:28:50 AM
That is a lot of adjustment when I did mine it was a small grub screw locked with a nut that is in the body and not a rod.
Canít make out in picture what that rod is, does it operate the VNT from the actuator?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 27, 2020, 10:30:19 AM
That is a lot of adjustment when I did mine it was a small grub screw locked with a nut that is in the body and not a rod.
Canít make out in picture what that rod is, does it operate the VNT from the actuator?
Yes but ignore this one, donut here had it in my head it was pushing instead of pulling - readjusting now.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 27, 2020, 10:32:54 AM
Haha easy done, reckon it would have done all manner of strange things adjusted like that
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 27, 2020, 10:51:04 AM
Haha it would indeed, now readjusted its pretty close to the original position, have also done the first vac test to check vacuum level/operation.  You will have to excuse my vac gauge, it does not return fully to 0 but hopefully good enough to see the result.

https://youtu.be/uxdbHYQbObM
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 27, 2020, 11:36:08 AM
Video showing vac applied, as the vac test under the car seemed to be ok I ran a pipe from the vac pump directly to the turbo. Apologies for the poor video it gets better in the second half, when I play it it media player its clear but looks out of focus in youtube.

https://youtu.be/FgjcFbqg5qQ
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 27, 2020, 12:02:03 PM
Is that not holding vac or is your gauge faulty? Seems you pump it up and vac drops back by itself
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 27, 2020, 12:12:52 PM
No my gauge doesn't hold a vacuum if you release the handle, you have to keep it squeezed and even then it doesn't always hold, in the vid I was pumping it it and releasing it and then pumping up again though so not sure if that's what you are seeing.

When I was underneath the car I did hold a vacuum on it to make sure it did hold though.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 27, 2020, 01:46:33 PM
One of the jobs on the list is to remove and clean the inlet manifold, I just did the throttle body but the manifold is also looking a bit grim - is there any mileage in the theory that the turbo is creating boost but its restricted getting into the engine hence the corrections?

Also is there a VW version of Ford' TIS?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 27, 2020, 07:09:01 PM
No luck with adjusting turbo then?
In theory a coked up manifold could restrict flow and cause excessive pressure build up that MAP is detecting. However I feel it would have to be a massive amount of carbon to the point car is seriously lacking power etc. But I stand to be corrected
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 27, 2020, 07:40:11 PM
Late to the party on this one! Its going over the prescribed limit when boosting, however the ECU is still able to lower the boost level before you hit the upper limit which is why its not flagging an over boost code.

The surge is because it's controllable by the ECU (as opposed to being stuck such as VNT vanes) which is why its able to reduce the power enough to come below the line. However 'the issue' isn't reacting instantly which is why you are getting this surging as the ECU increases the level of retardation and then has to reverse the effect as the boost suddenly drops away, essentially its stuck in a cycle of over and under correcting.

1) The split in the EGR pipe is a very likely candidate as it will be allowing un-metered air in/out and but because its such a small pipe, it'll be slowly enough to not be an instant reaction.
2) N75 is the next likely candidate, the ECU will be directing the valve to back off boost so if its sticky or the vac pipework to/from it has a split then that will slow the rate of change.
3) The VNT central spindle that drives the vanes could also be on the verge of sticking although less likely as normally the vanes will clog way before you experience that.
4) Finally if the turbo itself is badly worn then you'll get these symptoms as it takes longer to reach boost so again the ECU will try harder to get to boost which then arrives later then expected so it has to back off.
 

No luck with adjusting turbo then?
In theory a coked up manifold could restrict flow and cause excessive pressure build up that MAP is detecting. However I feel it would have to be a massive amount of carbon to the point car is seriously lacking power etc. But I stand to be corrected

No, unfortunately neither the correct adjustment or cleaning the throttle body had much affect.  Cleaning and replacing the 2nd screw in the MAP and more so changing N75 did change the characteristics quite a lot, it's much more lively and responsive now than before , especially at low revs where it was sluggish before and with most normal driving you wouldn't think anything was wrong, the issue seems to noticeably cut in just over 2000 and go away around 3000 revs. The vanes don't appear to be sticking and the actuator seems to be working fine.  I've checked the vac pipes and from what I can see they are fine, might go over those again tomorrow though but some are buried at the back.

I'm starting to think Mark's point 4 above might have pinpointed the issue and looking at the graphs the boost often seemed late coming in which would support that but I don't have a graph of a good unit to compare against.  I've just had a job for next week postponed so while now is not good financially it might be an opportune time to change it if that's definitely whats needed.  I just wish I could find some concrete evidence so I'm confident a replacement will cure it.

Does anyone have a vac diagram showing the vac source?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 27, 2020, 10:42:51 PM
Not entirely sure of set up on the 2.0 but when I removed EGR on mine I went with simplified set up and used this info.

https://uk-mkivs.net/topic/50427-pd-vac-line-simplification-n18-n239-valve-delete/

When I had an A3 with BKC engine it had different vac system with a vac control box like this not sure if sharan of similar vintage also used this set up.

https://workshop-manuals.com/skoda/octavia-mk2/drive_unit/1.9/77_kw_tdi_pd_engine/exhaust_turbocharger_g-charger/charge-air_system_with_exhaust_gas_turbocharger_part_1/connection_diagram_for_vacuum_hoses_(octavia_ii)/engine_with_identification_characters_bkc_bxe/

Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 28, 2020, 09:31:14 AM
Thanks Johnny for that info.

So is it the consensus that the turbo is failing?  If I order this morning I can get one for tomorrow and weather permitting get it done over the weekend.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on August 28, 2020, 09:36:30 AM
With all these sorts of issues, in my own experience it almost always comes down to the turbo.

People check EGR valves, vacuum pipes, digital readouts, they change MAP sensors, MAF sensors, air filters, fuel filters, clutch switches, gearbox switches, adjust actuator ARMS, swap the ECU, change the injectors, put potions in the tank, kick the tyres, change the tyres, change the exhaust, give the car a paint job, consult the mountain man, perform mystical rituals when the planets are in alignment... anything except change the ruddy turbo... and then they eventually change the turbo and it fixes it.

It's always the ruddy turbo (in my own experience).  ::)

Here's hoping that does the job for you...

 [NE1] [GL]
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 28, 2020, 09:43:01 AM
With all these sorts of issues, in my own experience it almost always comes down to the turbo.

People check EGR valves, vacuum pipes, digital readouts, they change MAP sensors, MAF sensors, air filters, fuel filters, adjust actuator ARMS, swap the ECU, change the injectors, put potions in the tank, kick the tyres, consult the mountain man, perform mystical rituals when the planets are in alignment... anything except change the ruddy turbo... and then they eventually change the turbo and it fixes it.

It's always the ruddy turbo (in my own experience).  ::)

Here's hoping that does the job for you...

 [NE1] [GL]

Agreed and I've had it before and these symptoms have been leading me to second guess that but there's not many other options now though and although its drivaeable and may last a while I'd rather change it now if needs be rather than have it blow on me in the middle of winter while I'm in the middle of a big job.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 28, 2020, 10:10:31 AM
You seem To have eliminated the usual suspects so does indeed look like turbo replacement time. Good idea to clean inlet while itís off aswell.
The turbo on the 1.9 needed to be extracted from down below with offside driveshaft moved off I recall correctly. If I let manifold is off they you can get it out the top so can kill 2 birds with one stone.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 28, 2020, 10:51:59 AM
You seem To have eliminated the usual suspects so does indeed look like turbo replacement time. Good idea to clean inlet while itís off aswell.
The turbo on the 1.9 needed to be extracted from down below with offside driveshaft moved off I recall correctly. If I let manifold is off they you can get it out the top so can kill 2 birds with one stone.

Thanks, turbo ordered for tomorrow, I will be doing inlet at the same time but will also remove the driveshaft as that's also on the list to check the condition of the splines and swap over witht the Galaxy one if they are interchangeable as I've already replaced that one.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 28, 2020, 12:08:20 PM
When you have turbo out just as I am curious are you going to whip exhaust housing off to check what the VNT is like and also take CHRA out to look at the vanes? Be nice to find something concrete wrong with it
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 28, 2020, 12:13:06 PM
Oh indeed, I'm hoping to get it out today before I collect the new one tomorrow :)
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on August 28, 2020, 02:05:40 PM
could u maybe take piccies and stuff, would be really interesting to see how u do this if it's not too much trouble

 [THANKS]
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 28, 2020, 02:14:31 PM
Of course  ;D  Any references to measuring points and I will report as much detail as possible.  Just got it up on the ramps to get started and ...

[attach=1]

Just my luck with this car - its the gift that just keeps on giving  ::)

I was spoilt with the old Galaxy, miss driving the old thing around, was really the lowest maintenance car I've ever owned.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on August 28, 2020, 03:10:23 PM
Hehe, yes it's raining here too and I'm hoping to do my fuel filter this evening (having spent most of yesterday changing light bulbs on a ford focus!)

Those two cars look absolutely beautiful. Really lovely looking cars, once we've got this hunting issue out the way I'm sure u will have many years of joy from that stunning looking and highly practical vehicle

 [drive]
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 28, 2020, 03:48:49 PM
Of course  ;D  Any references to measuring points and I will report as much detail as possible.  Just got it up on the ramps to get started and ...

(Attachment Link)

Just my luck with this car - its the gift that just keeps on giving  ::)

I was spoilt with the old Galaxy, miss driving the old thing around, was really the lowest maintenance car I've ever owned.

Thatís my luck aswell mate I took mrs car apart last week doing a suspension overhaul nice dry weather pressed bushes etc out and in with intention of refitting all following day. Rain of biblical proportions the whole day but I had to get it done as she outright refuses to drive my car
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 28, 2020, 06:27:38 PM
Well rain never stopped play and its off ...  ;D

https://youtu.be/m8za645htD4

I'm no expert in the finer points of turbo build, there doesn't seem to be any end float that I can feel, it is a little sooty and the vanes are all free with a fair bit of play in the mechanism, not sure if that's normal or not?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 28, 2020, 06:46:10 PM
I don't suppose 2 bolt missing from the inlet manifold will have helped things at all  :(
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 28, 2020, 10:44:47 PM
I donít remember mine having the movement like that when I stripped it. Fingers crossed the turbo sorts it.

Manifold leak certainly wonít help either as boost pressure can be lost aswell as letting in metered air in.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 29, 2020, 08:56:32 AM
The other manifold bolts except one were barely hand tight so I'm inclined to believe the turbo was still functioning and the issue was mainly caused but the air leak from the manifold.

However, the turbo is off now and I dont know its history as people have obviously been poking around with it, the vane linkage looks worn and if it's the original its well in the mileage window for a new one and although this one came off quite easily I have no desire to do it again, knowing my luck it would be in the middle of winter in the middle of a big job.

So will find some replacement bolts and pick up the new turbo and get it all back together with a cleanup on all the pipework/manifold etc.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on August 29, 2020, 12:21:54 PM
So impressive... and a very wise approach.

A great philosopher once said ďnever skimp on parts for it is your time and effort in changing duff units which is where the real cost liesĒ
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 30, 2020, 10:12:04 PM
Thanks David, unfortunately the problem persists  :'(  If anything the hunting might be slightly softer but the only really noticeable difference was it took longer to warm up and the temperature feel of the hoses/rad after a run was more in keeping with how my old galaxy was, slightly tepid - I guess this could be attributed to fixing the unmetered leakage at the inlet manifold which was not secured properly therefore not running as hot due to incorrect mixtures.

To sum up:
The problem is hunting/hesitation between 2000 and 3000 revs under load/acceleration.
Traces show the the delivered air pressure as fluctuating up and down at these times.
It is barely noticeable when cold.

Measures taken so far:
New N75 valve
Swapped MAP sensor for different unit.
New turbo.
Manifold cleaned.
Cleaned and check pipes leading to and from air cooler.
EGR blanked off at both ends of EGR cooler inlet and EGR cooler outlet to manifold.
EGR valve cleaned and checked.
Throttle body cleaned.
Checked VAC pipework for splits - none found.

So the only things can think which might be rare possibilities are:
Vacuum pump
Bad ECU map (maybe by previous owner)

I'm all ears for any other possibilities :)

The VAC circuits are fairly simple on this one (attached)

Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 30, 2020, 10:50:45 PM
Vac pump easy to check just plumb your vac gauge in to the pipe that goes to reservoir and see what vac it is reading. You want upwards or 20hg on idle. Not unheard of the res in cam cover can leak so you could try bypassing it although not convinced it is vac problem personally as it needs vac to give max boost. N75 drops vac off to lower boost so in theory low vac would cause low boost not over boost.
Itís an odd fault as you have checked or changed pretty much everything now,however it is acting different with a replacement turbo so that poses the question if it is turbo related and replacement (assuming recon) has not been set up correctly or is it different now you fixed the boost leaks?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 30, 2020, 10:53:15 PM
Thinking about it low vac might play a part as n75 tries to control boost based on set parameters for full vac but turbo acts differently dropping vnt further than expected so ECU then tries to counter that????
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 30, 2020, 11:03:32 PM
Vac pump easy to check just plumb your vac gauge in to the pipe that goes to reservoir and see what vac it is reading. You want upwards or 20hg on idle. Not unheard of the res in cam cover can leak so you could try bypassing it although not convinced it is vac problem personally as it needs vac to give max boost. N75 drops vac off to lower boost so in theory low vac would cause low boost not over boost.
Itís an odd fault as you have checked or changed pretty much everything now,however it is acting different with a replacement turbo so that poses the question if it is turbo related and replacement (assuming recon) has not been set up correctly or is it different now you fixed the boost leaks?

The turbo was a new Garrett one from Euro Car Parts, I did message Essex Turbos as had a good one from them 10 years ago (cough cough) but never got a reply and Euro could do next day which meant I could get it done over the weekend.  The main difference seems to be the running temperature but my gut feeling is fixing the loose manifold has probably improve the mixture rate which may have reduced hot running.  I haven't done a new trace yet but driving wise the fault is fairly unchanged.

So the pipe going into the cam cover is just a reservoir?  I figured it might be some kind of timing advance, do you know if the reservoir is accessible under the cam cover?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 31, 2020, 07:24:52 AM
Yes itís just a res in cam cover,not seen a vw one but my bmw cam cover is same set up and itís moulded inside. Whole cover would need changing if thatís at fault.

You can run without the res itís only real function is to store vac so you can run tests with engine off.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 31, 2020, 04:15:26 PM
I've tested the reservoir and that holds a vacuum.  So I extended the pipe feeding the reservoir to the vac gauge and ran it into the car for another run which was interesting, on idle its 30 or above as that how high my gauge goes - on acceleration you see very sharp dips in the vacuum to around 20 and then is shoots straight back up again which coincides with the hunting, this only happens on acceleration and not overrun where the vacuum is stable.

My thinking is that the sharp dips would be the activation of N75 and therefore rules out the mechanical vacuum side of things and it must be a control issue?

Any thoughts welcome, I'm running out of ideas now  :(
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on August 31, 2020, 08:19:13 PM
Seems quite a variation in vac to me unless the n75 utilises vac close to the reservoir. Try Tíing in to vac pipe where it originates (think it takes off from brake servo pipe) and see if you have the same sort of variations
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on August 31, 2020, 10:38:42 PM
Yes it tees off just behind the fuel filter, I did wonder about testing it there but the piece of spare pipe I have wasn't long enough, will get a longer piece of vac pipe and do that and also repeat the previous test with the reservoir back in line as a comparison.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 01, 2020, 10:01:55 AM
While kangerooing up the A1 into London this morning it dawned on me, something I should have checked earlier, possibly collapsed/blocked Cat, what coming out of the exhaust doesnít feel right.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 01, 2020, 10:14:03 PM
While kangerooing up the A1 into London this morning it dawned on me, something I should have checked earlier, possibly collapsed/blocked Cat, what coming out of the exhaust doesnít feel right.

Undecided on this.

2 hour drive home, London traffic then blast down the A1 - pulled up on drive and got ramps out and straight up on them.  I was expecting to not be able to touch the exhaust but it wasn't that hot, the front of the Cat was significantly hotter to the touch than the back which seems indicative of a non working/blocked Cat.  The back I could easily undo the bolts while the front I had let go every few minutes as a little too hot to hold onto, however ...

It's not collapsed or broken up, I have a hoover with blow function and tried that in both directions, it seemed to pass that air with with no restriction, shining a light through was hit and miss but that is possibly just down to the type of light and the long narrow passages that wont transmit light very well.

Given the temperature difference of a working Cat should apparently be hotter at the back than the front due to the chemical reaction I'm assuming this is non functional regardless of if its restricted or not so with not much to lose it first had a blast through with the hose pipe from both directions and its in a bucket with a solution of soda crystals and good old fairy.

Maybe that will be enough to see a difference in performance to gauge if I'm on the right track, in the morning will rinse and dry it and pop it back on and then test it on the way to pick up some vacuum hose for the other tests.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on September 01, 2020, 11:57:29 PM
Not familiar with the 2.0pd set up but has it hit a dpf?
Is there a chance any other exhaust section is restricted?

Like you say the cat shouldnít be hotter on inlet than outlet and to be considerably cooler outlet side does suggest a non functioning/blocked cat or blockage further down. Could you leave inlet loose to allow gasses to escape as a way of testing for system blockage? In theory if itís restricted and you introduce a leak the engine should perform better.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: vectrac20tsri on September 03, 2020, 05:00:55 AM
The 2.0 is a 8v PD I believe, If you can get a copy of your map I can check it over for you and let you know if it's standard and delete any fault codes if you do away with the solenoid.

Have you done a smoke test just to check for leaks? in my experience there's not normally a hesitation and can be heard but a smaller leak may cause issues and they use those silly clips for boost pipes,

use the right MAP sensor, although the 1.9 from factory uses the MAF for calculations there is a linearization for the MAP sensor which will be different from say 2.5 - 3.0 bar MAP sensor

I was told on the 1.9 to make sure the set screw is close to the right setting is use group 11 in basic settings and see the difference in mbar, the engine will go from full vac to 0 vac while revving to 1400rpm.

I also recommend use diesel purge from liquid moly, this stuff is great and not a gimmick, Bit awkward as you need to loop the feed and return ports of the diesel filter and feed the engine directly from the can / container, put a small inline filter into the feed as the return will have a lot of carbon crap, I fitted ARL injectors to my AUY and they were knocking due to sitting around for a while, driving it did nothing but this stuff completely cleaned them out and fixed the knocking 100%.

You can also log fuelling / injectors ect to see if there is any abnormalities.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on September 04, 2020, 07:27:05 AM
That diesel purge does seems to have excellent reviews

Iíve been racking my brain and just canít think what could be behind this mysterious problem

I know this might sound weird, but are we still sure itís something to do with the engine and not for example a rubbing brake or something weird with the suspension causing it to lurch? Does it do the lurching when u go up very steep hills?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on September 04, 2020, 08:50:19 AM
The logs of the boost are pretty conclusive with it being a problem with engine related stuff.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on September 04, 2020, 09:15:43 AM
Phew, ok so weíve narrowed it down to that thankfully... where do we go from here. Could it be something to do with hoses, that sort of thing?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 06, 2020, 08:05:02 PM
Work went a bit crazy this last week so haven't had much time but here is the latest, I'l try and keep it as short as possible.

Breathing:
CAT - cleaning was inconclusive so figured it was past its best anyway and knocked the insides out - it took away some of the flat spots but wasn't the fault.
Rest of exhaust - have also eliminated that by disconnecting from the rear of empty CAT and running with no exhaust, have also removed and put inspection camera in flexi piece between turbo and CAT.
Intercooler - have disconnected both hoses and run the hoover on blow function through both directions, no restrictions or fluid in there.
Airbox/filter - ran for a short distance with lid removed from air box therefore eliminating air filter and box.

As all the rest of the pipes, throttle body and manifold were cleaned before I think the above eliminates it being a breathing issue.

Vacuum:
Connected vacuum gauge at T piece just after vacuum pump - saw the same sharp dips as before that coincide with hunting, drops to around 28 with reservoir connected and 25 withit blocked off.
Inserted a T piece by the turbo actuator - same sharp dips that coincide with the overboost, down to nearly 0 in the dips.

I'm not sure if these dips are a cause or a symptom.

You may recall I mentioned it overheated 3 weeks ish ago, at the time the cracked heater matrix was replaced, the system flushed with rad flush and all has seemed well on that front since (also had a sniff test done at the time).  Well on Friday evening the temperature rose again, same symptoms as before, no circulation to heater or radiator (stat has already been replaced).  This time I have noticed the system is pressuring up quite quickly, no sign of water in the oil or anything other than rust in the coolant.

So to my mind there has to be a problem with the head gasket/head, not sure if the issues are linked or individual but that probably has to take priority over the hunting and in the next week will probably be removing the head.  I'm not sure which way I'll go yet as I still have the gearbox issue, I did speak to darkside developments and they seem to think its syncro from the symptoms.  I need to check if the galaxy box is the same - if it is then I may just get the AC degassed and pull the front end of and lift the engine and box out as a whole and do the head and box in one go with it out of the vehicle which might be a whole lot easier.

David - 3 of the four corners have already had the springs, shocks & front wishbones swapped over from the galaxy as I replace all that at the beginning of the year, just need to get round to the fourth corner, dont think any of the brakes are binding.

vectrac20tsri - Thank you for that offer, I may well take you up on that later on - I have ordered some of that diesel purge but will probably wait until I've looked at the head now before using it.

As always much appreciate the responses and ideas - any thoughts on any of the above welcome. 
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on September 06, 2020, 08:37:00 PM
For vac to drop to 0 even when VNT operating I would say that is a cause rather than a symptom,I would suspect the tandem pump is failing.

Unfortunately on that particular engine (BRT) the heads have been known to crack.


I would suspect the galaxy box is different as itís connected to the 1.9, the 2.0 even if casing etc is same I would imagine ratioís are different.

Did you look in to the shim on the end of shaft?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 07, 2020, 06:12:57 AM
For vac to drop to 0 even when VNT operating I would say that is a cause rather than a symptom,I would suspect the tandem pump is failing.

Unfortunately on that particular engine (BRT) the heads have been known to crack.


I would suspect the galaxy box is different as itís connected to the 1.9, the 2.0 even if casing etc is same I would imagine ratioís are different.

Did you look in to the shim on the end of shaft?

I contacted darkside who you linked to and they said it sounded like syncro, it wasn't expensive though so maybe worth a go anyway?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on September 07, 2020, 08:27:19 AM
I think I would try the shim and an oil change first before whipping box out.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 08, 2020, 09:09:20 PM
I had a job cancelled today so had some more time to play around.  Yes unfortunately the gearboxes do have different codes, the Galaxy is FUX and the Sharan is JPN, externally they look identical and the driveshafts are definitely the same but haven't found any technical specs yet.

Gearbox - have reset the linkages following the procedure and also changed the oil, don't frown at me for this but having changed it in the galaxy about 4 years ago (supposedly lifetime stuff) and it being special order and about £70 for the correct stuff I really didn't want to order new oil just to test so yes I did go there and drained the Galaxy oil, ran it through a superfine paint filter twice and put it in the Sharan  :-[  The results are promising - its not super slick changes but seems to have improved it, will need to do some more miles to make a firm judgement.  I also tried to gently tease the cap off the end of the box to check for end float, it wasn't going to come off without damaging it so have just ordered the shim kit which should be here for the weekend, hopefully that might improve it further and justify replacing the oil with new.

I have also ordered a rebuild kit for the tandem pump but while the battery tray was out it would have been rude not to have also borrowed the Galaxy one, as far as I can tell there is just the one variant?  Anyway the sad news is it had no effect on the hunting but will rebuild the other one at leisure and swap it back.

So I think I have run out of things to try and the next step must be to remove the head and see what joys that reveals



Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on September 08, 2020, 11:27:50 PM
Itís a very odd fault thatís for sure I canít think what else could be causing it except for the ECU map??  Seem to remember reading that the BRT also suffers with injector issues so might be worth inspecting/testing them while head is off

Tandem pumps are either LUK or Bosch both interchangeable if I recall bit both do exact same job.

Fingers crossed the shim kit will resolve the gearbox issue,and like you I would have done the same with the gear oil for testing purposes. Whatís so special about the oil that it cost £70 and had to be ordered in? I thought they just used standard  synthetic gl4


Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on September 10, 2020, 07:47:53 AM
U guys r amazing how u tenaciously work through complex mystery problems like this one. Iím racking my brains to think of what else it could be but Iím feeling out of my depth now. I really hope this lovely car gets back in the road without kangarooing soon
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 11, 2020, 09:25:11 PM
Cheers guys, well the good news is the gear changes are a whole load better since changing the oil and resetting the lingages, its still a little notchy but I'm hoping the shim may help with that.

As for the hunting well that's still there and the coolant is still pressuring up so taking the head off is priority and maybe the answer to its problems will be revealed.  Is there any kind of VW technical reference like for the Ford I had TIS for things like torque settings/sequences etc and general reference. 

I'm preparing myself for it needing a new head and if that's the case would prefer to get one prebuilt with new camshaft/valves ground in etc that I can just bolt on - purely for time reasons - does anyone have any recommendations for suppliers?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 13, 2020, 09:51:02 PM
Bit of an update - prior to beginning dismantling I took a couple of information gathering steps, first I borrowed a mates diesel compression tester, all four cylinders measured around 400psi each with very little difference between them which at least gives me a certain degree of confidence in the bottom end.  Secondly I looked at the torsion value in measuring blocks 4 which showed -5.4 on idle which seems to me a bit far out.

As of this evening the turbo and inlet are all back off and I've got as far as the timing belt which on checking prior to removal I believe is one tooth out (cam end), unfortunately my timing tool that I had for the AUY Galaxy doesn't seem to be compatible with the BRT Sharan variant so a new one is on order but on visual checking doesn't look right.  I have attached pics which show the cam locking pin engaged but to me the crank is 2 teeth advanced from where I believe it needs to be which would equate to 1 tooth on the cam.  There are 22 teeth on the crank and 44 on the cam, 360 degrees divided by 44 gives 8.18 degrees  per tooth which coupled with a couple of degrees adjustment on the cam sprocket would suggest that correlates with the VCDS reading  of -5.4 retarded cam timing.

I'm hopeful this maybe the cause of the hunting but still very much of a mind that there are two individual issues and that there is still a problem with the head that is causing the coolant to pressure up, after the pics I did remove the water pump and confirmed the impeller had not become detached so i think the head still has to come off.

Things are not helped by someone previously breaking the receptacle for the crank locking device  >:(

The above is just my theory and as alway welcome any thoughts.

Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on September 13, 2020, 10:30:31 PM
Fairly sure all 8v PD lumps use same timing gear and locking tools,however with the crank lock you have it will never line pointer on crank up with tool anyway as pointer on sprocket is within the groove and tool is not matched. Seem to recall my lock is opposite to yours? Will have a look tomorrow.

I think either way with the pressurising the head needs to come off so you got some time to confirm for sure before itís rebuild time.

If timing is out like that it would certainly account for the poor running I suspect.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on September 13, 2020, 10:34:19 PM
Just like in ref library this is same tool as mine for the 1.9 so BRT must be a different sprocket, still looks out of time though.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 14, 2020, 07:52:44 AM
Thanks for that, I don't recall it not lining up when I did the Galaxy and the tool I've ordered lists the BRT but not the AUY whereas another tool listed the AUY but not the BRT so definitely think there is a difference.  It's a shame I won't be able to lock the crank in but at least I can use it for alignment purposes.  Will hopefully get the head off this afternoon to shed more light on the saga  ;D
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 14, 2020, 08:59:29 PM
The head is off - I can't see any cracks on first inspection, possibly some signs of leakage on the block side from the rear of cylinders 2 and 3 and I'm a little suspicious about the bit between 3 and 4   I dont think its the first time its been off as the the 80 grit witness marks on the head would indicate someone has had a go before  ::)  Was trying to get an idea of how true the head was but it was a little difficult on the floor on my own so may clean it up a bit more tomorrow and have another look at that.

With regards to the timing with it in the position that it looks incorrect and the cam locking tool fitted in is actually true TDC, I will have a look with the new locking tool when it arrives but I'm now second guessing that unless the valve timing is set up just before TDC.  Does anyone know if the crank sprocket is keyed?

I need to measure the protrusion of the pistons, it already seems to have the maximum thickness gasket so if that is correctly specified then skimming is not an option I believe.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on September 15, 2020, 06:53:47 AM
Thatís certainly been off before going by the emery marks.

1,2 and 3 look iffy at the back and between 3 and 4. I donít think I would be taking any chances with that head either needs testing or replacing in my opinion.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 15, 2020, 08:18:03 AM
Yes, I think several people have probably been chasing faults on this car for some time given it 7 previous owners, limited mileage in recent years, the cracked heater matrix had clearly been leaking for some time and everything I touch shows evidence of someone messing around before me  ::)

I don't have a lot of faith in that head, time off the road is not good so I think I will just look for a replacement, a pre built unit would be a lot more convenient as everything is being don on the drive.

Any recommendations?

These two are on the list to give a call to, anyone used them?

https://www.excelengineservices.com/cylinder-head-volkswagen-65-221521-01c-2157-p.asp
https://www.autotechcylinderheads.com/cylinder-heads/recon-cylinder-heads/volkswagen-20-tdi-diesel-reconditioned-cylinder-head-sk1036-00083.html
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on September 15, 2020, 10:22:36 AM
Either looks fine to me never used those places before though.
Donít forget new injector seals,hold down bolts and rocket shaft bolts as they are single use. Also injectors need setting in head perpendicular or you run risk of injector/head damage.  Ideally you want a big set of vernier calipers but I used a set of feeler gauges on the flat side to make sure it was square against the face of head.

Use correct tool to fit injector seals aswell or the seals could twist. Vw tool T10056, I have these if you want to pm me your address you can have them as I no longer own a PD engine car.

Finally donít want to teach a granny to suck eggs and all that but injector lash requires setting up aswell. Turn engine so rocker fully down,screw adjuster in until resistance felt then back off 180 degrees and lock off.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 15, 2020, 10:50:50 AM
Thanks Johnny, that would be fantastic, happy to make a donation or pass on to another forum member after.  Any tips and pointer are gratefully received, I served a mechanics apprenticeship back in the late 80s before changing career so am comfortable with the spanners but cars have moved on a lot since then and certain tasks require certain procedures but with the lack of a technical reference like I had with Ford's TIS I'm reliant on the internet for information which can be a fantastic resource or a glut of misinformation which has to be verified.

Am phoning round for info on the heads at the moment.  With regards to the timing there are indeed two different tools, my new one arrive today and it looks as though the timing may not have been so far out as I thought although VCDS did show it at -5.5 and with the broken locking lug I suppose it would have been easy to have been a few degrees out so all I can do for the moment is sort the head which should resolve the coolant issues and reset the timing and go from there.  I may try to effect a repair on the locking lug with some JB weld.

This guy explains the tools best.
https://youtu.be/J8HybemS_RY
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on September 15, 2020, 12:17:38 PM
No donation needed for them, they have been sitting in tool box for a few years doing nothing.

I think even with broken lug you should be able to get the crank timed up, the torsion value is probably as a result of someone moving sprocket in past when doing a belt and just leaving it. I tend to slack the 3 bolts to fit belt and then line bolts up centrally in holes and check angle. Then adjust as required
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 15, 2020, 07:45:40 PM
So went with the one from Autotech Cylinder Heads which comes complete with camshaft and should be here tomorrow.  Haven't really achieved much today apart from ordering the head/bolts/gaskets and cleaning the engine bay and block face which could do with another going over but I ran out of wet & dry so will finish that tomorrow and stripping the injectors and loom out of the old head, will probably use the injector loom from the galaxy as that was only replace in January and the rocker cover looks an absolute pig to remove once the inlet manifold is back on as there is very limited access to one of the rear bolts - happy to hear from anyone that's done that and what tool they used?

Tomorrow will pick up some more bits and pieces and start cleaning up all the other parts until the head arrives
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on September 15, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
Tried to pm you but your inbox is full. I will post the injector seal tools out to you after work tomorrow afternoon.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 15, 2020, 08:56:37 PM
Thanks Johnny, I just looked and I had 7 messages all dating back to 2013/2014, I don't think I've ever had a notification of PMs being received.  All cleared out now and will have to keep an eye on it in future.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 16, 2020, 07:24:04 PM
New head came today, was busy with paperwork though so only really got round to cleaning a load of bits up.  Took some pics and rough measurements on the old one, they would have been more accurate but the battery was flat in the vernier calipers.

Comparing to the new one the injector lobes quite flatted and worn approx 1mm compare to the new one.  Valve lobes worn between 1mm and 2mm and the cam followers are nearly deep enough to make a breakfast bowl out of.  Oh and I think the bearings are past their best.

Injector seals probably not going to be here until Friday, not sure if I'll fit the head and do them after or wait and fit them first - knowing my luck I'll drop the spline bit down the oilway or something.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on September 16, 2020, 08:37:43 PM
Hopefully once back together it will run sweet as a nut, posted deal tools today 1st class so should be there when you get the seals.

Think you made right choice getting a built up head as the cams and lifters are usually worn in those engines.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on September 17, 2020, 03:59:14 PM
This is so exciting, it's way out of my depth technically speaking but I feel like I'm learning so much from this, thank you all!

 [GL]
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 17, 2020, 09:14:12 PM
Exciting?  I beg to differ on that terminology David  :D  Although my credit card company is probably quite excited at all the funds going out  :'(

Not a great deal of progress today either, ordered more bits and pieces for refitting, cleaned the piston tops, installed the injector loom from the Galaxy into the new head plus exhaust studs and brackety things from old head, finished cleaning all the bits up and tried to organise them in the back of the car ready for refitting.  Also checked injector part numbers are correct as there are many variants and given the evidence of people messing around I didn't want to take anything for granted.

Johnny, the seal tools arrived today, thank you muchly - you still need to let me know what postage was please?  And inf anyone want them in the future then I'l happily pass them onto another member.

Decided to wait and fit the injectors first before bolting the head down.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on September 17, 2020, 10:11:19 PM
Glad they arrived safe and sound,apologies they need a clean I used them and just fired back in tool box several years ago and forgot to give a wipe over. Honestly no need to worry about postage. As I said people on here have done me a good turn in the past so just passing that on.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on September 18, 2020, 07:24:33 AM
This handy sounding tool sounds very useful!

Canít wait to see this lovely Alhamb back on the road!

 grouphugg
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 18, 2020, 08:15:55 AM
Thanks again johnny.

Does anyone have any links to the run on pump wiring?  I had noticed before mine wasn't working, tested it off the car and still dead so probably needs brushes.  I had swapped it with the working galaxy one which still didn't work so tested the feed with the engine running and no feed.  As a temporary measure I had rigged up a temporary direct feed to the pump which I had been manually switching on and off which worked but inconvenient.  While I've got space to work it would be nice to try and trace the fault as its going back together.  I believe the later versions are slightly different as some don't run on after the engine is switched off but not sure where the feed comes from.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on September 18, 2020, 11:47:25 AM
I did have a drawing for that before but canít for life of me locate it now. I seem to recall power originates from BCM but canít remember if it energises a relay or if direct from BCM. Sure someone on here will have a drawing though.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: brianh on September 18, 2020, 08:42:00 PM
Here you go, closest I can manage. May have changed for the later models as this is from TIS though.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 19, 2020, 08:46:27 AM
Cheers Brian, I'm now wondering if the run on pump in later versions is inactive while the climate module is turned off which it was a few times as the load made a difference to the poorly running engine, its very possible I tested the feed while it was turned off  ::)

Another slow day yesterday which several phone calls interrupting progress but the head is at least on the block albeit not torqued down.  Injectors all resealed and all fitted in the head and lined up as best as possible with feeler gauges as per Johnny's suggestion earlier and the seal installation tools he sent me made life very easy.  Haven't done the backlash yet as figure it will be easier to mount the dial gauge when the head is fixed to the block, anyway I best get on lots to do ...
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: brianh on September 19, 2020, 10:13:52 AM
Might be an idea to hook up a visible indicator to see when its running. I'd suspect it may run differently on the later models as you suggest, unfortunately the copy of TIS I've got only covers the older models.

It may be worth switching the rear heater on and to hot to see if that effects it, only dealings I've had with mine is on the 2.3 petrol where it runs all the time and for a few minutes after stopping engine regardless.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 19, 2020, 07:16:04 PM
only dealings I've had with mine is on the 2.3 petrol where it runs all the time and for a few minutes after stopping engine regardless.

That's how mine used to run on the Galaxy but some forum posts seem to suggest the behaviour was modified to avoid over cooling, good shout on the test light, I'm sure I can rob a bulb holder from the old Gal and rig something up  ;D

 :'( :'( The gift that keeps on giving ...  :'( :'(

Unfortunately not so good new on the head, only got as far as torquing the head bolts, front cam seal, rear timing cover, idler and tensioner - went to fit the cam pulley and started tightening the bolt expecting the camshaft to spin but that was a big fat no, seized in both directions.  I had spun it after fitting the injectors to check for clearance but not after fitting the rocker shaft as the adjusters were all backed off pending adjustment later.  so working backwards, discounted the cam seal and undid the rocker bolts which freed it up - I think it the No.1 cam cap but it could be a compound effect of several.  Rocker bolts were torqued to 20nm + 90 degrees.  If the cam caps are secured directly on the the head I'm not sure how this is possible unless the cam/shells are out of spec.

I have retorqued the bolts to 20nm with no+90 degrees and it's still spinning but I'm not 100% sure its as free as it should be, I really don't want to risk snapping a stretch bolt by retorquing fully.  Managed to speak to the head supplier, he said he's had this about a year ago and that customer undid the bolts and retorqued and all was fine  ???

Anyway, long story short he's sending me replacement rocker bolts for Tuesday and has advised probably best not to go ahead with fitting anything else in case the head needs swapping, which he seems willing to do if needed.  I did offer to remove the cam to see if anything was obvious but he didn't seem to think that would be beneficial and as its possibly a warranty situation I guess I have to go through the steps he dictates.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on September 19, 2020, 08:36:00 PM
Not having much luck with that engine are you?
Seems odd that it spins fine but when rocker torqued down itís seized,does sound like an issue with cam caps to me being pulled down funny with the rocker shaft.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 19, 2020, 08:49:55 PM
Not having much luck with that engine are you?
Seems odd that it spins fine but when rocker torqued down itís seized,does sound like an issue with cam caps to me being pulled down funny with the rocker shaft.

No unfortunately I'm not, but the only through a problem is to just keep working through it I believe.  I would like to pull the cam caps off but unless he gives me the nod then I guess I have to go through the steps one by one - one theory I have is the sealant that is applied to the outer caps between the cap and head, my thought is if too much is applied prior to the shell being fitted then it could pack the shell out - I did put that to him but he discounted it on it being an anaerobic sealant - not convinced that makes a difference.

I'm living in a vague hope that torquing it a second time with new bolts will yield different results but my logical self is not convinced at all.  My only saving grace is not much has been fitted before I spotted it.  I was quite meticulous regarding the torquing of all the stretch bolts and certainly took my time to make sure it was correct and was quite happy with the feel of them all as they went down so on that front its a little dissapointing.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on September 19, 2020, 10:13:53 PM
I canít see replacement bolts will make a difference personally but as the head is under warranty you have to follow the steps he suggests as frustrating as that is.
I canít imagine sealant under cap would cause it either due to bearings already being in cap and head when sealer applied,any excess would go on journal rather than under shell. And in that case I would say cam would still turn rather than lock it up? Be nice to be able to whip it off and have a look though. By sound of it seller will sort it out whatever the issue is though
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 23, 2020, 06:45:59 PM
The replacement bolts came yesterday, firstly just nipped them up so everything was sitting home, then simply worked worked one stage, first to 20nm then 45į then another 45į.  The only thing I did differently was to rotate the camshaft between every turn of a bolt.  Took a little while but at the end of it the camshaft was still turning so I'm relieved but still a bit baffled.  Injector lash also all set up, the cam pulley lent itself nicely for a base for the bag dial indicator gently held down with one bolt  :)

Rain stopped play today but hopefully over the next few days will get the weather/time to get it all back together.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on September 23, 2020, 06:48:13 PM
Very odd they new bolts sorted it, canít explain that one. Oh well at least itís ok now and you just got to stick it back together.


Hopefully no more issues and itís plain sailing from now on
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 23, 2020, 07:58:22 PM
No, there must have been something off first time round but no idea what. 
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 26, 2020, 04:51:43 PM
So it's finally back together and running again with no more drama, it does indeed drive like a different car and so far, the cooling system appears to be functioning properly.  Have only done around 30 miles and while the hunting has mostly gone away it did still do it a couple of times quite randomly in different gears on acceleration, nowhere near as badly as before, it does it for a couple of seconds and then normal again.

I still have the diesel purge to run through it and the torsion angle still seems quite far out so will adjust that but to be honest I think I could live with it as it is now and just accept the occasional blip as a character trait.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on September 27, 2020, 09:16:40 AM
This has got to be one of the best outcomes ever!!

You are all so knowledgable and good at this stuff!! So impressive!!

Another MPV saved from the yard.

 clapping and jumping [WAVE] balloons balloons grouphugg [YES] [YES] [GJ] [cool] woohoo balloons
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 29, 2020, 07:29:19 PM
Not sure its saved yet David.

Having got to do some more miles in it the hunting is still there as before, that seems to be a pattern, whenever something gets changed initially it seem better soon reverts but that could also just be my interpretation or driving style.

Diesel purge is next on the list, some clear pipe due today for that job.  Tweaked the torsion today, its sitting at 0.5 dropping to 0 on revving so that's close enough for now.  Back to basics now, I think the next option is to just swap out all of the vacuum pipes, they all checked out before but its cheap and totally eliminates another possibility and there were the unexplained blips in the vacuum.  I had swapped the tandem with the galaxy one but that didn't make any difference and now the original is back on with new seals.  I would also like to swap the servo check valve just so everything vacuum is eliminated.

Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on September 30, 2020, 12:02:25 AM
How gutting all that work and itís still hunting. Have you done a log with maf and fuelling aswell to see what they are doing when it plays up?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on September 30, 2020, 05:16:23 PM
I know, I have to admit its pretty demoralising, not so much for the time aspect but the money aspect is spiralling with no end in sight, I suppose on the positive at least I have the tools and am able to do the work myself.  The head had to be done either way as the cooling system was becoming non functional and at least that seems stable now, although I do wonder if running the way it is possibly contributed the the HG failure which is something I don't want to repeat.

I could really do with a good link for measuring blocks numbers and their descriptions, some are quite obvious but others not so and the links I'm finding are not tying up with my VCDS but I did take some more logs today and also found a log view which makes reading them quicker and easier.

Groups 010, 011 and 013

[attach=1]
[attach=2]
[attach=3]

One more positive thing I forgot to mention, the gear change now seems to be fully sorted  ;D  While the head was off and it was all dismantled I noticed two things, the black and white caps on the rear of the linkages were not clipped on and also there was a cooling pipe missing its retainer clips which I think caused it move around and interfere with the linkages. Rectified those and did another reset procedure and its good as gold now, I did take the cap off and check for play - there was a little but when trying to fit the shim it was not enough to allow the circlip back into its groove even when pulling the shaft forward so that's safely stored and maybe I'll try it again in a year or so.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on December 28, 2020, 05:31:40 PM
Long time with no post so to bring this up to date (apologies, it's a bit long), I really don't think you could write this stuff.  I carried on with the car for about a month which was about 1000 miles, everything had been fine except for the hunting but on the way home one day it starting running on 3 cylinders, managed to limp it home and was looking for obvious things so looked in the expansion tank to find a lot of oily sludge, fault code indicated electronic injector fault.  Struggling to think of a link between an injector fault and oil in the coolant I abandoned it in the corner of the drive in despair and disgust and went back to using my little honda Jazz.

A few weeks later I came across another Sharan, exact same model year and almost identical mileage, this time from a reputable dealer, it was during the Nov lockdown so viewing and test driving was limited and I was needing to move some gear for work so decided to take a gamble, again on the thought that over time I had a source of spares.  The dealer had promised everything was working and it had just been serviced blah blah blah but I soon noticed it had several small issues - AC/Aux Heater/Oil overfilled to half way up the dipstick but most concerning was it also displayed the same hunting issue under load  :o, only very occasionally and nothing like the other one, only really noticeable when joining motorway from slip road in 3rd gear, turbo trace didn't really even show it. Anyway, 2 weeks and 2 days later the gearbox chewed its internals up so at that point it was back to the dealer,  I won't go into the whole story but he tried everything to blag me off but eventually he agreed to refund it after threats of legal action.  Yes, i could have taken the box from the other one but didn't see why I should and didn't want to totally immobilize that one just yet - it's like unfinished business that I needed to return to before giving up.

Anyway today I finally got some time to take a look the first one, getting the rocker cover off with the manifold in place took a fair bit of time and needed a 'special' tool making up to get to the last bolt.  Once in there the first fault was obvious - one of the injector bolts had stripped and I guess the injector jiggling around caused the loom connection to come off, the bolt was nowhere to be seen so assume it has dropped to the sump but the retaining block was still there.  Managed to find an old bolt and with 5mm of thread left I just nipped it up so i could test it.  Only took it for a short drive but seems to run absolutely fine so hopefully no further damage caused.

That leaves the oil in the coolant - I am hopeful that this is going to be a failed oil cooler, there is no sign of water in the oil and it runs smoothly with no pressuring of the coolant and back when I first got it  it was very apparent by the rust that it hadn't seen antifreeze for a long time.  So first things first, I need to repair the injector retaining bolt thread, am thinking this kit will probably be the most effective but am open to any other suggestions:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Welzh-Werkzeug-Injector-Clamping-Bolt-Thread-Repair-Kit-FOR-Mercedes-Benz-CDi-M6/174046964850?hash=item288601ec72:g:z6kAAOSwUF1dB-Hy

As usual pics added:

Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: insanitybeard on December 28, 2020, 07:51:14 PM
I applaud your persistence to keep going and try to get to the bottom of the problem after all of your trials and tribulations! Yikes, so the injector had been free (to a point) to wiggle about without the clamp bolt and block holding it firm - although the downward force from the rocker arm had prevented something more serious from happening.

The kit you've linked looks like a glorified version of a helicoil kit with maybe a reamer and a few other bits added? Helicoil may be cheaper but not have all of the bits included in that kit. Can you get good enough access to the damaged thread by unbolting the rocker shaft assembly and removing the injector in question or has more got to be removed? Hardest part will be trying to keep the drill as square as possible to the head whilst drilling and preventing swarf getting into the surrounding cylinder head and crucially any fuel passageways in the cylinder head if the injector is out (as I'm assuming you don't want to be removing the head again to use a pillar drill on it!). Before you tackle the job, is it definitely a standard M6 x 1 thread on the bolt and not some fine pitch? I don't know the answer to that but just sayin' that it might be worth double checking to ensure that the thread insert you fit definitely matches the pitch of the thread on the bolt!

Like you say, hopefully it's just the oil cooler unit failed that's allowed oil to get into the cooling system. An old mechanic acquaintance of mine used to swear by putting a Persil washing tablet (or similar!) in the cooling system after oil contamination and with the heat and circulation generated by the engine running the detergent in the washing tablet would help break down the oil deposits and clean the system out before a flush and refill with fresh coolant! I am not recommending or condoning this but a coolant system flush must do a similar job.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on December 28, 2020, 10:42:41 PM
Assuming new bolts used,torqued to spec and lash was set up correctly I would contact the company who supplied the head and see what they say before drilling and helicoiling. It shouldnít just pull the bolt out like that I would suspect threads were iffy to start with. I know itís a ball ache if you have to remove the head again though.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on December 28, 2020, 11:12:46 PM
Thanks guys, its hard to find an exact spec but from searching forums it seems to be M6x1, having sunk so much into it I would like to see if it can be useful again, even if only for a few months and having to put up with the hunting issue as I am due a payment at some point in the new year but not sure when yet and at that point will be able to look for something a little younger.  I'm still unsure about the coincidence of the injector bolt failing and the oil in the coolant as I'm sure I had only checked the fluids a few days previously and all was fine but it certainly ran ok when I nipped the injector back down with the remaining thread.  I've also heard dishwasher tablets are good for flushing the coolant  ;D  I'm not sure I will ever solve the hunting issue as having had another model of the same year and mileage etc which also did it albeit to a lesser extent indicates it might be an inherent issue with the 140's.

Yes, when I fitted the injectors they were new bolts and torqued down + the required turn to the correct spec, it was a new torque wrench as my old one didn't go down low enough.  But as always there's lots of distracting bits of info like I did have the issue of the cam seizing the first time I torqued the rockers down and now this stripped thread which is almost making me suspect the torque wrench may be out of spec, but then on the other hand having thought about it over the last couple of hours the injector bolt slips easily down the hole to the remaining thread which I'm sitting here thinking might indicate it was previously helicoiled as stripped thread usually still offer some resistance.  Unfortunately the evidence of that is likely still attached to the bolt which came loose and is now presumably in the bottom of the sump. Although that isn't causing an issue at the moment if I can get it running properly again will probably drop the sump to remove it.

I have sent the company I got the head from an email so will see what they say and will update with progress.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: brianh on December 28, 2020, 11:28:03 PM
Dishwasher tablet probabbly better than clothes washing one as you get less foam from them. When my mate had his old workshop he did have a old dishwasher in there for washing random bits of engines etc when needed, said it was the easiest way he had found of cleaning old oily bits up when needed.

Might be worth checking if you have a magnet on the sump plug just in case it managed to catch the bolt. Not sure if the standard fit one on the diesels has one but if you can find one swapping it over wouldn't be the most difficult of jobs to try and avoid dropping the sump just yet.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: insanitybeard on December 28, 2020, 11:45:39 PM
Going back to the original fault, do you know if they are Bosch or Siemens injectors fitted to the engine? Somewhere previously I have read reports about some later PD units (or certain engine codes) being fitted with Siemens injectors which were a lot less reliable than the Bosch ones fitted to earlier vehicles. I recall this had a bearing on the model of Touran (1.9 vs 2.0 litre diesel) I bought for my then partner back in 2015. It seems a bit of a coincidence that you've tried two different Sharans both fitted with the same model engine and both showed the same symptoms to a greater or lesser degree.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on December 28, 2020, 11:51:30 PM
The ones in this one are definitely Bosch, I made a note of the numbers while it was stripped initially.

VW number:  038130073BJ
Bosch number 0414720229
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: insanitybeard on December 29, 2020, 12:02:58 AM
Bugger, it's not that then! Did you renew the injector wiring loom following the thread stripping incident? The injector wiring loom contacts can eventually give trouble on the PD's, when it gets bad enough it usually logs a fault code as you found out but not necessarily in the early stages from accounts that I've read. Wondering if this might have any significance.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on December 29, 2020, 05:34:44 AM
I dropped a spline bit in top of cylinder head when I had mine in bits as itís got an ally sump I was able to use a strong magnet against sump to guide the bit to the sump plug hole. Unfortunately for me plug hole thinner than the bit but for you and injector bolt should fit through the hole ok.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on December 29, 2020, 11:22:20 AM
No, only opened up the rocker cover yesterday but when I put the recon head on I took the loom from the Galaxy, that was new last January so had only seen a few months use before the engine failed.  Will give the magnet a go and my mate has one on a flexible stick which could be poked in the hole tr try and draw it out.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: TFG on December 29, 2020, 01:03:58 PM
Whilst chilling and in some ways depressing in the tales of woe it recounts, this is a very interesting thread and now carries a lot of useful information for others (myself included  :) ). So many thanks to all those who've taken the time to post - especially Bruce! Hopefully it will all come good in the near future.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on January 05, 2021, 06:15:30 PM
Thanks for the kind words @TFG I really hope no one else has a run of luck like I have with this one.  @johnnyroper Ian from Autotech cylinder heads called me yesterday and in fairness to him he offered to send me a Helicoil kit as long as I returned it aftwards but I had already ordered the bits though and to be honest I have no desire to take the head off again and send it away.  He is going to send me a replacement injector bolt though.

So after a fair amount of time spent with duck tape and an Iceland bag I manged to isolate the area and with the aid of a long screwdriver marked up a vertical guide line for drilling.  The hole before I started showed little sign of any thread and the first few mm was the exact size of the drill bit required for the Helicoil which I guess was caused by the bolt jiggling about.  Drilling it out took seconds as there wasn't a great deal of material to remove, tapping also went smoothly with an extension made up of a backwards 1/4" drive 7mm long reach socket, a 3/8" drive 7mm allen key and an extension.  I inserted two 3D Helicoils into the hole inline to maximise the thread available and had to trim the top 5mm of the 2nd one. Before I started, the hole had a depth of 30mm, and I now have approximately 26mm of Helicoil thread which hopefully will be enough to hold it once the new bolt arrives.

The big question now is do I dare torque it up to the full spec?

The Helicoil kit was just a cheapo £9.50 amazon jobby and then some 3D Helicoils and a long 6.3mm drill bit all came to about £16.  Cleaning the swarf away was done with a 10" piece of 4.6mm irrigation tube held in the end of the house hoover  :)



Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on January 08, 2021, 08:03:34 PM
New bolt fitted and torqued up to full 12nm +270.  About 40 miles of driving around done and it seems to be running very well. I really don't want to jinx anything but the hunting seems much less evident than I remember but its also got me wondering if the colder ambient air temperature is a factor.

Still not convinced I could be lucky enough that the oil in the coolant is a coincidental oil cooler failure so tomorrows job is to try and bypass the the coolant from the oil cooler which in this temperature shouldn't be an issue and then flush out the cooling system and monitor it before spending any more money on it.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on January 08, 2021, 11:07:31 PM
You really havenít had much luck with that motor have you. Fingers crossed itís oil cooler and not the head at fault
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on January 09, 2021, 02:38:59 PM
Wey hey!, bypassed the coolant pipes from the oil cooler and with a few minutes of running I had oil dripping out from underneath ...

Off to get a new one.

Might get myself a lottery ticket tonight - feeling lucky  ;D
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: insanitybeard on January 09, 2021, 03:36:27 PM
Good work, fingers crossed you've got the issue finally sorted! And I'm sure that all the useful images and information you've provided in this thread will prove useful to others.  [GJ]
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on January 09, 2021, 05:05:54 PM
Thanks Paul, I really do hope so.  Unfortunately Euro's had the wrong cooler, on their one the pipes come out of the side whereas the one fitted come out of the top and is physically much bigger in size so going to have to wait until Monday when GSF open.

In the meantime I've turned my attention to the Aux heater and getting that working and the coolant up to full temps can only aid the flushing process.  I was just reading a thread in which I think you swapped the later d5z-f for the earlier D5w, do you have any details on the differences on the multiplug.  The fitted d5z is showing internal memory error and from what I understand they are prone to ECU failure.  My old D5w just needs a glow plug.  I have quickly checked the connections at the plug underneath and am showing three lives present but it was starting to get dark and cold so left it for today.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: insanitybeard on January 10, 2021, 10:55:11 AM
No, unfortunately it wasn't me that swapped the later D5Z-F type heater for the earlier D5W-Z, somebody else may have though and be able to assist/confirm?

I did depot the old ECU from my D5Z-F as per this (https://www.fordmpv.com/smf2/ford-galaxy-vw-sharan-seat-alhambra/d5z-f-booster-heater-ecu-depotting) thread but didn't resort to substituting the earlier model heater. I can't imagine that the wiring has been substantially changed though, in the first instance it may be worth comparing the two multiplugs to see if they've been changed from one model to the other, if so they can with a bit of a fiddle be dismantled and you could probably swap one for the other.

More discussion here. (https://www.fordmpv.com/smf2/ford-galaxy-vw-sharan-seat-alhambra/yes-really-malfunctioning-d5z-f-booster-heater)
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on January 10, 2021, 06:11:25 PM
Thanks Paul, must have misread the thread.  Comparing the two plugs they are almost identical, same pins used with the same colour/size cores, the only difference seems to be the retaining catch on the side of the plug but that can be resolved with a little self amalgamating tape.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to get it working today, the sticking point seems to be the air temperature signal wont switch on with either heater.  Have tried it with the temp sender wires shorted out and with the sender itself plugged in which was also tested to provide a closed circuit at ambient temperature and then going open circuit when held in the hand for a few mins to warm it up.  With the older (Galaxy) heater I was able to perform output tests on both the blower fan and dosing pump so that side of it is working.  On the original (Sharan) heater output tests don't do anything but that's not surprising as I suspect the ECU is faulty but VCDS does connect to it and its show a difference in state on the Progr Timer measuring blocks and displays its Memory Module Error fault code.

As its the same on both heaters I think I must be missing something obvious or there is another condition that hasn't been met.  At this stage I only have the heater on the floor and just want to see it begin its start-up phase before I bolt everything in so the system doesn't have any coolant in it and reading Mirez's excellent guide on the heater it apparently shares a coolant sensor with the ECU so am wondering if the system disables it in a low coolant state.

One thing that is confusing me is in Mirez's guide under the Electrical circuit section is states that 12v should be present on pin 5 via the air temp sensor but in the diagram it shows it as pin 6 - I have continuity between pin 6 at the heater plug underneath and the air temp sensor under the bonnet so I think that must be a typo.

Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on January 10, 2021, 10:47:27 PM
Wey hey!, bypassed the coolant pipes from the oil cooler and with a few minutes of running I had oil dripping out from underneath ...

Off to get a new one.

Might get myself a lottery ticket tonight - feeling lucky  ;D


Just checking emails and saw this, cant complain  ;D

Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on January 10, 2021, 10:54:33 PM
Not bad at all.

Congratulations on your winnings!

 [cool]
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: TFG on January 11, 2021, 11:15:56 AM
@barlidge - brilliant detective work on the oil cooler Bruce  [GJ]. Chapeau. If it's the same as the oil cooler on mine (a '57 plate Alhambra 2.0TDi, so of similar vintage) the oil cooler is Nissens p/n 90655 (not 90608, which has the hose spigots emerging from the side of the cooler and 'crossing over'), or NRF p/n 31168.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on January 11, 2021, 09:37:52 PM
Not bad at all.

Congratulations on your winnings!

Thanks David.

 [cool]
@barlidge - brilliant detective work on the oil cooler Bruce  [GJ]. Chapeau. If it's the same as the oil cooler on mine (a '57 plate Alhambra 2.0TDi, so of similar vintage) the oil cooler is Nissens p/n 90655 (not 90608, which has the hose spigots emerging from the side of the cooler and 'crossing over'), or NRF p/n 31168.

Thanks and yes that's the one, and a right little sausage it is to get the pipes back on if using the existing spring clips, I did think about changing them to jubilee's but once they are on I prefer them.  Picked up one from GSF this morning, all fitted and have started flushing the system - I think that will be a good game played slowly - fill it, run it around for a bit and then drain and refill, probably have to repeat many times, a glug of jizer and dishwasher tab seems to convert the oil to a nice runny brown soup consistency, I wish I had a hot water tap out front to try and help flush it through.

Aux heater working now, it seems the 12v feed into the ambient air temp sensor is intermittent, no idea why and also still have no 12v feed to the run on pump, problems for another day and they are both now fed from a temp supply direct from the battery via an inline fuse, will just have to remember to put the fuse in and take it out until I sort out a better solution switched inside with a time delay relay for the pump.

To change it over to the earlier version - the plugs are the same with the exception of the retaining clips on the side.  The bracketry, coolant pipes and air intake pipe need to be swapped from the doner vehicle and the exhaust will need some sort of retaining fixing making up as the original bolted to the bracketry that has been removed and I cant remember where the doner exhaust bolted to as the Galaxy has gone to scrapyard heaven now but glad I took all the associated Aux heater bits off it before it went.

Time will tell if there is anymore permanent damage cause by the loose injector but it seems good so far.  Will get it flushed over the next few days and then it will be back to the hunting issue

TBC . . .
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on February 04, 2021, 09:10:51 PM
Time to update this on going issue and yes, I can almost hear you all groaning :)

Pressure tested the pipework from the airbox all the way through, yes there is a slow drop but it sounds like its coming from the throttle body which would normally be open when this issue occurs.  I may revisit this later with the addition of smoke but at the moment and with the results below I don't think its a pressure leak.

Next I flushed the intercooler, really didn't want to remove it so did it in situ with a cocktail of Jizer, fairy liquid and 3 dishwasher tabs.  Lots of flies got washed out and some oily residue but I don't think it was enough to get concerned about, left it flushing for about 18 hours.  This also goes some way to confirming the pressure test above as if there was any leaks in the intercooler or the pipework to and from it there would have been some drips on the floor over that time period.

Have also changed the MAP sensor as this was the last thing that hadn't been changed and I know I have said it before but this has made some difference - only a small degree I think to the hunting but without doubt it has improved the fuel consumption which was quite bad and the acceleration in the lower rev range.

Also finally got round to changing all the vacuum pipes and non return valve, this hasn't made any difference at all.  Also tried the old galaxy tandem pump again as last time I tried it was before changing the head and finding lots of other issues, not sure but maybe a slight deterioration but not specific enough to be certain as I've come to realise just changing the load in the car can make a difference to how the hunting performs

I'm still not convinced its not a vacuum issue so next step is to put a 12v vac pump on it and possibly hobble together another reservoir although I don't think this one is leaking as when I pull the pipe off 24hrs after running its still got vacuum in it.

Vid of vac test:
https://youtu.be/hZdcOVJA3wk
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on February 04, 2021, 11:06:11 PM
That car has certainly tested you and given what you have found and done to it I canít help thinking the problem maybe a characteristic of the engine,maybe something to do with the map in the ECU. Very strange fault though as you have eliminated all the common issues
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on February 04, 2021, 11:15:13 PM
As the other one I bought had very similar albeit less significant symptoms I'm also wondering, I'm just really hoping it comes down to it being over sensitive on the vac levels or a slow leak in the servo as there really is nothing else and the turbo traces speak for themselves so even if there was injector issues without an O2 sensor I don't see how that could cause the turbo to fluctuate like it does.

I did also find another thread with similar symptoms but he sold the car before resolving it.

https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/2-0-tdi-140-turbo-on-and-off-boost-vw-sharan.479771/

Its a shame as its now running quite well apart from that, has done quite a few miles since repairing the injector bolt and oil cooler, several trips to London one of which loaded with half a ton of steel plates and also a trip up to Warrington fully loaded with materials, tools and trunking on the roof rack.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: mike wilson on February 05, 2021, 11:04:40 AM
I would be very concerned about flies in the intercooler.  There should be nothing there but clean air - with maybe the merest hint of oil mist from the turbo.  Maybe loose flies are what is causing the hunting....
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on February 05, 2021, 01:12:54 PM
I would be very concerned about flies in the intercooler.  There should be nothing there but clean air - with maybe the merest hint of oil mist from the turbo.  Maybe loose flies are what is causing the hunting....

Thanks and yes possibly, when I say lots, I guess it was 20-30, probably been run without the air filter at some point.  Maybe that's something I need to go back to and if I can find a bit of flexible pipe the correct size bypass the intercooler temporarily.  I have had the vacuum cleaner on it both sucking and blowing though and it didn't appear to have any sign of restriction but that's not a very exact test.

So did a bit of a heath robinson job and 'fitted' the 12v vac pump on and did a few runs with different scenarios.  Although it felt slightly different on the runs the graphs say there was no real difference at all so not sure what else I can test/replace with the vacuum side of things.

[attach=5]

12v pump only with reservoir connected, mechanical pump and pipe blanked off.
[attach=1]

Mechanical pump only reservoir blanked off.
[attach=2]

Both pumps connected reservoir blanked off.
[attach=3]

Both pumps connected with reservoir connected.
[attach=4]

Who's got the matches? :'(
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on February 06, 2021, 08:08:52 AM
I am starting to feel that this car has been affected by the supernatural
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on February 06, 2021, 11:14:28 AM
I am starting to feel that this car has been affected by the supernatural

Agreed  :'(  To be honest I'm pretty much out of ideas on it now, I think it needs some fresh thoughts.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: TFG on February 06, 2021, 12:23:57 PM
Did you say you'd checked all of the pipework between the turbo exducer and the inlet manifold? The intercooler looks to be in the clear.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on February 06, 2021, 12:48:14 PM
Did you say you'd checked all of the pipework between the turbo exducer and the inlet manifold? The intercooler looks to be in the clear.

I pressure tested it from the air box right through the turbo all the way to the throttle body, there was leakage but I could hear air escaping through the throttle body itself which I would assume is normal and in normal running would be open.  The inlet manifold was originally loose but was cleaned and refitted with new gasket and bolts torqued down when the recon head was fitted.

Vid of pressure test:
https://youtu.be/hZdcOVJA3wk
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on February 06, 2021, 12:55:49 PM
Also did a trace on the throttle pedal output which to me looks normal:



Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on February 06, 2021, 02:10:12 PM
WAIT!  What's this?  Nooooooooooo!  ???

Need to do a test run - be right back (after I've charged the battery that is, yet another cost ) . . .
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: TFG on February 06, 2021, 02:50:06 PM
What's what???!
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on February 06, 2021, 02:51:57 PM
K. C. Watts is the Manager.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: TFG on February 06, 2021, 02:56:54 PM
I've seen something vaguely similar on a Ford Fiesta 1.4TDCi. That would surge, then lag, then surge, then lag when trying to accelerate, with a constant throttle. It urned out to be a spilt in one of the rubber pipes between the turbo and inlet manifold that had a small split in it. On casual inspection it looked fine. But the boost pressure would open the split above a certain pressure, so the car would accelerate until the split opened, then it would loose boost pressure until the split closed up again, at which point it would boost again, et seq.. On a light throttle, calling little boost pressure, it would drive competely normally.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on February 06, 2021, 03:17:50 PM
Interesting. Could we do what the tyre fitters do, spray some soapy water over it and look for bubbles my friend.

 [THANKS]
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on February 06, 2021, 04:22:48 PM
@Chrispb

I should have paid closer attention to this:

Just been reading about the hunting problem on another forum, a few people seem to be convinced it's to do with the clutch pedal switch, whether it be by riding the clutch pedal or a weak pedal return spring.

Chris, thanks for that link, I had a little read and did as they suggested, holding the clutch pedal up while accelerating but no difference, I may swap the switch with the one of the Gal if they are the same just as a double check.

I never got round to pulling the Galaxy one, and testing it as I did by pulling up on the clutch would not have shown an issue as there was approx a 5mm gap between the end of the pin and the clutch pedal with it in the fully up position.  The switch seems to have three positions, at one end and in the middle it kind of ratchets and doesn't return, on the third position it has a two stage spring resistance and returns all the way (better explained in the video below).  Maybe part of the installation procedure?  Regardless of which position its in I'm getting open circuit on it both depressed or fully released and it rattles so I'd say its dead.  Bridged a piece of wire over the two terminals in the multiplug and it drives almost like a new one.

Video of switch:
https://youtu.be/MgVs2g0V6Fo

And I now have a turbo trace that looks a little different to the others:
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: johnnyroper on February 06, 2021, 06:38:24 PM
So have you hit to the bottom of this strange fault now? Hope you have as itís been a bit of a mission tracking it down. And if it is the clutch pedal switch what an odd fault to have with a dead switch.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: brianh on February 06, 2021, 07:01:55 PM
I'd suspect it may not be truly dead - more likely when the car is moving along it occasionally makes contact if anything. I've had that sort of problem with the alarm bonnet switch on other cars, where you get fairly random instances of it going off for no apparant cause (usually as its starts getting colder at night) or random beeping when taking it through a carwash. The vibration from movement along the road might be enough for it to see a connection there momentarally.

Hoping hes got it cracked now though, seems positive from what has been found.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on February 06, 2021, 07:52:16 PM
It certainly looks like that was the cause, I did two runs first without the switch connected which it hunted as it normally did and the second with it bridged out, it was instantly a smoother car with no hunting and the trace is significantly better.

As for the switch it wasn't making physical contact with the pedal and I was getting no continuity through it in any position, I've dissected it a bit and it is indeed a two stage switch although I cant work out the purpose of having the two springs of different rates.  The rattling was the contacts that had broken off inside so it is very possible they made an intermittent connection, on acceleration at low revs it would occasionally give a jerk which may well have been that.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on February 06, 2021, 09:27:04 PM
 [GJ] [NOTHING]
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: Chrispb on February 06, 2021, 11:21:18 PM
 clapping and jumping you got there in the end ;)
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on February 07, 2021, 08:49:20 AM
A big thank you to everyone who has contributed, it has certainly been a journey to this point.  [THANKS] [WAVE]

One question I'm pondering is if I had found the clutch switch before I found all the other things like the loose manifold, split EGR pipe, clogged EGR, blown head gasket, worn cam, blah blah blah ...  What real difference, if any, would it have made to the running at that point?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: TFG on February 07, 2021, 12:53:20 PM
What a relief. Congratulations!!!  [GJ]

Have you got a part number on the old switch? I've just had a google for 'clutch switch' and the ones that are coming up don't have that black bit on them that you're turning in the video.

Not quite sure what purpose that selectability would serve. Something to do with cruise control, perhaps?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on February 07, 2021, 05:37:36 PM
It does look like its a modified part, and judging by the date this one is the original.  Given its low mileage, 7 previous owners and all the evidence of people poking around it I wonder how long its been duff and how many people have chased it?.  GSF list one for it at just under £12 - bargain  :)

1J0 927 189F
19322013
25.10.06
05832
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: TFG on February 08, 2021, 09:48:14 AM
That's the part number I was using. Using it (or 189E) returns all sorts of variations, mostly without the turning bit. Some are listed as a clutch switch, others as a brake switch. All a bit confusing.

I tried to get on 7zap to look at this, but it's playing up; it's very slow and the links to the parts digrams pages don't work. Anyone else having this problem?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on February 08, 2021, 10:42:20 AM
I think it is also used as a brake switch, the ratchet mechanism is an auto adjustment feature which supposedly sets itself on installation.  I think the barrel of the switch is supposed to turn and lock as you turn the body of the switch into into the pedal but like you I am finding very conflicting information and apparently the switch is easily broken if fitted incorrectly.  Some say fit with pedal down, some say with it in its rest position and then there is variations on the switch with info that suggest the later variation is a different installation method to the original switch.

GSF offer two variations with no info of the difference so I'm off to get one soon and will report back.
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: TFG on February 08, 2021, 11:05:17 AM
Did yours originally have four pins, or two?
Title: Re: Sharan 140 SE Hunting on Acceleration + other issues
Post by: barlidge on February 08, 2021, 11:07:53 AM
Just two pins, so it was easy to bridge to confirm the issue.