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Large MPVs -- Ford Galaxy / VW Sharan / SEAT Alhambra: => Ford Galaxy / VW Sharan / SEAT Alhambra => Topic started by: scanner22 on January 30, 2018, 03:47:04 PM

Title: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: scanner22 on January 30, 2018, 03:47:04 PM
Hi Guys,
I am pulling my hair out on this one, I am about give in!
Mk2 Sharan 2003 - PD ASZ

I know a lot of the detail is covered in many of the posts so please can you give me a sanity check!

Symptoms -
Overheating at 70mph
No heat in cabin.

What I have done/checked.
Water pumped changed 6months ago (and did timing belt). Impeller had broken away from shaft. Replaced with metal impeller pump.
2ry water pump was not working. Reconditioned with new carbon brushes and not runs fine.
No apparent increase in header tank after use (no leak from head gasket) and no loss of coolant.
Drained antifreeze, added 3 bottles of holts speed flush, ran for 48 hours, drained, flushed with water. Coolant system now runs clear, no brown water coming out.
Up until yesterday, bottom radiator hose was cold after use. I changed thermostat today hoping that this would solve the problem- now with new stat, both top and bottom hoses are hot but still overheated and no cabin.

Guys please help!!
What else is there to look at....

Any help gratefully received!!!
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: johnnyroper on January 30, 2018, 03:55:02 PM
First off check the little plastic restrictor in the small bore hose that goes back to header tank. It is usually just by battery after the T piece. Run a 2mm drill bit through it,when blocked it can cause any air in system to become trapped.

Having said that with the PD engine it is unusual to get thermostat to open except after prolonged runs at speed,especially in this weather.
Itís classic PD head gasket symptoms in my opinion do you get any excessive pressure in header tank after a run?
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: scanner22 on January 30, 2018, 04:26:22 PM
Thanks for the response..

No restrictor in my return hose to the header tank..! (I did have on my previous Sharan but not this one.. Don't know why)  I've watched with the header tank cap off and I can see the water dribbling in from the return tube so I assume this isn't an issue.

I didn't used to get any excess pressure in the header tank - I have only just filled her up and went for 1 run after putting the new stat in so maybe there is still some air in the system - I cant' confirm post drain, and new stat about the header pressure -  I was just hoping that this was going to fix the problem.

The other thing I noticed is that it did heat up to temperature very quickly - which I am thinking there is still a flow issues somewhere.
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: johnnyroper on January 30, 2018, 05:21:04 PM
Do you get any heat from the heaters if it does not over heat or are heaters always cold?
As for heating up quickly that could be air locks or the head gasket in my opinion. Flow issue wise if your run on pump is operating then that usually gives enough flow to give warmth from heaters even if main water pump is knackered.

I would give it a decent run and see if the header pressurises
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: scanner22 on January 31, 2018, 01:05:58 PM
No heat from heaters if not overheating and no heat when it does overheat.

I let it cool down after a 10min run at 70mph last night. After fully cooled down, there was just normal very small amount of pressure in the header tank when I opened the cap. ]
I have done a longer journey to work this morning, still not heat in heaters and it did over heat. This time I drove with temp gauge ~110degree C in the hope, that this would cause the stat to open wide and flush the block/head of any air but no change. I will open the header when I go back to it later today to see what he pressure is again.

I am hoping it is not the head gasket, but it does look like it. I just can't get my head around there not being any pressure in the header....

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: Chrispb on January 31, 2018, 02:23:42 PM
Am I right in thinking your saying it's overheating by the reading of the temperature gauge but no loss of coolant and no high build up of pressure?

If so I would change the coolant temperature sensor especially after you said it seems to get up temperature very quickly,

A couple of questions since you've had the car
1 Does your booster heater work?
2 Has both front or rear heater ever blown hot air since you have had the car.
3 Has the car ever lost coolant or had high pressure causing coolant to be blown out from the cap
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: bouncypete on February 01, 2018, 12:46:39 AM
My gut feeling is that the new stat is faulty.

Does the radiator matrix itself get hot?
 
The hoses could be hot because the heat is being conducted from the overheated engine, not from actually coolant flow. If the stat is opening correctly then coolant will be flowing across the heater matrix which should be hot to touch with the inlet being hotter than the outlet.

If the stat isnít opening fully the engine will get hot and overheat quickly but the radiator matrix will remain cold. This will also be true if the water pump has failed but is less likely now youíve fitted a pump is a metal impeller.

Just before clicking post Iíve just re-read your opening comments. You only say the engine overheats at 70 mph. Does this mean that at lower speeds or in traffic it holds 90 degrees and only overheats at high speed?
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: johnnyroper on February 01, 2018, 10:30:00 AM
The new stat could be faulty but that wouldnít explain no heat from heaters as the matrix are supplied before stat opens. All the stat does is keep cooling circuit to engine and heater during warm up and once up to the stat opening temp coolant then flows to radiator.

When it has been running and gauge is reading have you had a feel of the coolant pipes under passenger side floor to see if they are warm? Difficult to get to but you can also have a feel of the pipes to front matrix by the run on pump see if they are warm.
As it has had stat,pump,run on pump is working and it still over heats with lack of cabin heat I canít see anything else other than head gasket. These were symptoms I had when I purchased mine along with some pressure in cooling system. Gasket was leaking between no2 and cooling jacket.
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: scanner22 on February 01, 2018, 05:48:50 PM
Chrispb - yes. Temperature gauge goes over 90 with no loss of coolant or excess pressure build up.
1. Booster heater hasn't worked since I got the car. ~2 years. (This is the 2nd of two Sharans I have owned) .
2. Front heater matrix used to blow hot air - I never did check the rear one though.
3. No loss of coolant or coolant dripping from header cap.

Bouncey Pete - good idea about the rad matrix - I haven't felt that for temperature, jus the rad hoses. Will see if there is any heat in it. And yes, at lower than~65-70mph, it holds temperature and only over heats if I go above 70. No loss of coolant but it does over heat if I go above 65-70mph.

I checked the new stat (and old) in a tub of boiling water (I know that this is not an actuate measure of the temp that the stat would open  but at least I know that it does open somewhere below 100degrees c. I was very surprise to see that the old one opened as well. Much slower and not as large a gap compared to the new one, but it did open!. So not sure it is a stat problem.

I do have a lot of pressure when I open the cap when hot now but when cooled down, this goes back to the normal very slight pressure. My thinking is the the build up of pressure (from somewhere -airlock?) is causing the water level to drop to the secondary pump and therefore not pumping any heat to the heaters.

I will check the rad matrix for heat.
Is there anyway other then getting a machine to read the gases in the header tank to confirm if the head gasket is gone?

Thanks again all.
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: johnnyroper on February 01, 2018, 06:04:52 PM
A sniff test on PD very rarely shows head gasket problems mine didnít and it was knackered.
The run on pumps location in the circuit is adequate to pump around heater matrix even if main pump is knackered, the pressure when hot and level dropping is a big indication of gasket. Even when hot mine only has minimal pressure and certainly does not cause level to look low and then come back up after opening the cap.

When you say it has low pressure when cold is that after sitting overnight or just when Engine has been run but not up to temp?
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: joka on February 02, 2018, 02:30:30 PM
internal leak in the radiator?
coolant goes directly  from "in" to "out" , and not through the matrix.
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: egg on February 05, 2018, 03:49:31 PM
Thie head gasket must be a common fault on the 115pd. My 05 auy engine is pressurising the coolant, thermostat is fine, water pump is fine, run on pump Is fine and rad is clear. Dunno why I bothered checking them all, should have just known its the head gasket.

Just thought it would be very unlucky to have it happen twice in a year, but as the missis says if we'd ducks they'd drown.

Would I be able to use the waterpump I replaced in the donor car I have? It did less then 1000 miles? Might save me 70 Euros... Or is that asking for trouble?
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: johnnyroper on February 05, 2018, 04:17:01 PM
It sure is a fairly common thing on them,do I remebrr you doing the head on a previous gal??

I would use the pump as itís done less than 1k miles.
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: egg on February 05, 2018, 06:24:58 PM
Yes Johnny you walked me through it and diagnosed it spot on, fair play. The dmf went on it and with all the electrical faults I decided to keep it as a donor. I couldn't remember was there a gasket with the water pump.  I was also considering reconditioning the injectors, have no idea mind of cost so could be prohibitive if not a waste of time. Good thing is if the head is warped I know I have a straight swap sitting there ..
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: johnnyroper on February 05, 2018, 06:51:27 PM
The water pumps have an o ring on them.

If it is all running ok apart from the over heating I would leave the injectors alone personally.
On the plus side you know how best to tackle the job now so will have it done and dusted a lot quicker 2nd time round.
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: bigjeeze on February 05, 2018, 08:20:33 PM
Has anyone thought to try just replacing the head bolts?  Is that a possible solution. When my head gasket went I could not for the life of me see where the leak was  - the head and block looked clean and clear. I know these bolts are stretchy and that they do need tightening down after a while - perhaps just re torquing them or replacing them might work?
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: johnnyroper on February 05, 2018, 11:44:53 PM
I had the same thought after reading about vwís with 115 lumps having same issue and people saying go a further 90 on head bolts. I didnít try that myself as I had already took head off but @egg tried it I think without success. I know on mine it was obvious leak between no2 and jacket so doubt it would have worked,I did however fit 150bhp bolts when put back together as that is suspected to stop happening again.
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: scanner22 on February 06, 2018, 08:15:18 AM
Joka, thanks for the rad image and good idea.

Update since a few days ago.

I took the car into a local garage near work for them to perform a sniff test - if it is positive then I will know for sure it is the HG. For the sum of £36 they were able to tell me that they couldn't detect any exhaust gases.
Johnnyroper, I think you are right with on this - a negative test does not mean it is not the HG.

I opened the header tank this morning and felt a small amount of pressure (after the run home from work last night), and I can hear a rush of water back into some pipes/head/block when the pressure gets released. No loss of collant though.
So still over heating if I run at 70mph for greater 7-8mins and no heat in the cabin. I felt the radiator when I got out after coming to work this morning.
I couldn't get my fingers into every area but some parts definitely felt warm (not hot) but there was a part at the top, on the opposite side to where the hose comes in, which was stone cold.
Am I clutching at straws here guy - should I just accept it is the HG?
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: Chrispb on February 06, 2018, 10:19:18 AM
Certainly most of your symptoms are pointing towards head gasket, but the greatest majority of these the loss of heater is intermittent and always blowing/losing coolant out through the cap with loads of excess pressure.

As the car has already been subject to loss of flow from your old plastic impeller failing then it's only a matter of time before problems arise.

Before you start stripping the engine if your doing the job yourself I would check the flow through the front and rear heaters, because even though you say you have flushed the cooling system out if the heaters have never got hot then there's nothing flowing through the matrix's.

The heater circuit pipe work is quite large as coolant is taken to the rear heater matrix through the booster heater.

Also the restrictor in the small return hose to the header tank should not be left out of the hose just clean the hole or replace the pipe with a new restrictor, by leaving the restrictor out the coolant will take the easiest route, that's through the main radiator 
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: johnnyroper on February 06, 2018, 10:33:26 AM
The pressure remaining in system overnight is sure fire sign of head gasket leaking. I get the normal pressure when hot but once cold it is gone there is certainly no rushing of water.

I purchased mine knowing gasket was gone and nursed it 100 miles home I didnít get any heat from heaters for whole journey.
I think you need to bite the bullet and get the head off personally.
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: egg on February 06, 2018, 11:28:44 AM
I tried the head bolts 90 degrees... no joy unfortunately.

Hope this is relevant to the thread.

https://www.fordmpv.com/smf2/ford-galaxy-vw-sharan-seat-alhambra/dayco-timing-belt-kit-and-vw-water-pump/msg24534/#msg24534

For for a cheap oem quality kit.

I used Darkside Developments for the head gasket, gasket kit and 150 head bolts. Was £103 delivered, and don't know is this a good price.
Any other suggestions or links to get a decent head gasket set and 150 bolts?


Good luck with the head job scanner :D
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: scanner22 on February 07, 2018, 03:38:37 PM
Hi Guys - Thanks for the information about the HG.

ChrisPB - Yes I had disconnected the pipes near the aux heater and backwards flushed the rear circuit from there.
As mentioned before I don't have a restrictor anywhere in the small return pipes to the header tank (or any where else). But it did use to work like this, so I can only assume that it is not the restrictor that is causing the current issue.

Egg, thanks for the note on HG. I won't be doing another HG on a PD!  I replaced the head gasket on my previous Sharan which had an AUY PD lump but it didn't turn out well. It already had a 3 notch HG on it, and the head was skimmed. I don't know how much was skimmed as it was a mate of a mate who did it. After putting it back on, I never had enough power, and started to get increasingly more valve/tappet noise until eventually the engine would not run!

I think I have got to the point to accept that it is the HG.

So a challenge to you guys. I am trying to work out if there is a way to block/clamp some of the hoses to try and get some heat into the cabin whilst I sort out a new car. I am fed up of being frozen ever time I drive.

Can anyone please tell me how to post a image? I have made a schematic of the coolant hoses, which is different to my AUY system which had the restrictor in it). I would like to ask for a sanity check as I think the car, sometime in the past, has had some work done on the radiator (new) or a/c.

Thanks
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: scanner22 on February 07, 2018, 05:31:35 PM
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: scanner22 on February 07, 2018, 05:32:42 PM
Ah - Don't use quick reply if you want to upload a doc.

Sorry for the messy hand writing!
Title: Re: Sharan Mk II PD Overheating and no cabin heat - Followed advice no solution!
Post by: johnnyroper on February 07, 2018, 05:41:10 PM
Canít comment if the hose layout is correct as I cannot for life of me remebrr how mine is,but you could try linking the hoses that go to rear heat and see if that gets heat from the front one. I suspect you wonít though but worth a try.