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Author Topic: Timing belt tensioner questions  (Read 9377 times)

Offline vpavlov

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Timing belt tensioner questions
« on: December 27, 2015, 07:34:09 PM »
Hello.
I have made a timing belt change on a 2005 Seat Alhambra 1.9 TDI with a ASZ engine. The timing belt kit is from Ruville, with a belt tensioner form Litens.
I have followed the instructions on this site and have read all the other relevant topics on this site as well as on myturbodiesel.com, sgaf.de etc.
I have made all the necessary:
Locked the crankshaft and the camshaft in the TDC with the proper tools before removing the old timing belt.
Unlocked the old tensioner pulley and removed the old timing belt.
Loosened the three 13 mm. bolts on the camshaft pulley and positioned them in the center of the elongated openings on the camshaft pulley.
Installed the idler pulley and tensioner pulley.
Used the wire locking pin to further loosen the tensioner to allow easy installation of the new timing belt.
Installed the new timing belt.
Tensioned the belt using a hex key until the pointer on the tensioner is in the middle of the window cutout.
Tightened the 15 mm. tensioner nut to 20 Nm while still counter holding the hex key to prevent the pointer from moving.
Tightened the camshaft pulley bolts to 25Nm.
Removed the locking tools on the crankshaft and camshaft.
Made a full revolution of the engine using the crankshaft bolt.
Tensioned the 15 mm. tensioner nut to another 45 degrees.
The pointer is dead central to the window cutout.

After assembling everything and starting the engine everything ran fine.
I switched off the engine and discovered (after removing the top timing belt cover) that the tensioner pointer has moved to the right, as shown in red in the photo below:
-https://www.fordmpv.com/smf2/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fv5sQiyd.jpg&hash=c13c7bdfc328d2b5cd43538b5855d5be

After discovering this problem I read carefully the installation manual that came with the Ruville/Litens tensioner.
Below is a photo of the manual and the two important steps that in my opinion differ from the usual procedure:
-https://www.fordmpv.com/smf2/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FIypi7or.jpg&hash=db73ddd1ed4e52cd1d4f3e37259ddad2
 -https://www.fordmpv.com/smf2/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FptIYg5E.jpg&hash=e0fc782d91adabeb2e733b8e84d02aa1

I followed the manual (especially step number 8) to the point and again the outcome is the same - when tightening the tensioner everything is OK, when the engine is running the pointer is to the right of the window cutout.
Then I decided to tighten the tensioner with the pointer in the left side of the window cutout. After starting the engine the pointer moved to the right at approx. the position shown below in red:
 -https://www.fordmpv.com/smf2/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FGmFXoPI.jpg&hash=7be6b7e70b779851443dd3e451d40d34

So... In essence I have a problem that when I tighten the tensioner with the pointer in the cutout window (as it should be, after starting the engine the pointer moves to the right i.e. the tensioner is more tightened.
I'm beginning to believe this is a feature of the tensioner. Even when I stop the engine the pointer stays to the right.

Have anyone stumbled upon this?
Do I have to be worried when the pointer is as in the above picture (with the engine running)?
I used Vag Com and in section engine/measurement/4 have 0 degrees - i.e. everything is OK with timing.

Thanks in advance.


 

Offline Chrispb

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Re: Timing belt tensioner questions
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2015, 08:12:29 AM »
The pointer marks are static settings only, a slight tightening of the belt will occur naturally  when the engine is running.
The only difference to your initial instructions I would advise is to rotate the engine two revolutions before final check and fully tightening tensioner.

A belt that is over tensioned (to tight) will whine when the engine is running.
0 degrees is that when engines cold or hot?
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspächer booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

With VCDS lite (full version) need a code clearing or want to scan for faults in the north kent area, PM me.
All for a pint of Strongbow.

The FordMPV.com Forum - The free forum for questions and answers relating to the Ford Galaxy, S-Max and C-Max

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: Timing belt tensioner questions
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2015, 11:34:36 AM »
I've always found trying to get the pointer to stay dead central in the window (as well as keeping the timing spot on) once the bolts are all tightened up a matter of trial and error, as Chris has said a minimum of two complete rotations of the crankshaft (which is one complete rotation of the camshaft) are necessary once everything has been tightened up to get the timing marks/ timing pin holes all back to the TDC position to check the timing hasn't moved as well as checking the tension is still correct. In any case, if you look at the tensioner pointer whilst rotating the crankshaft you will see it moves depending on how much load is on the belt at that point of the cycle- it varies because of the different loads alternately placed on the belt by the valves and injector rockers.

My approach has always been to rotate the engine several times manually to TDC and re-insert the crankshaft locking tool/ camshaft pin once the belt tension is set and everything is tightened up to a) check the timing hasn't moved and b) make sure the tensioner pointer is still in the window at TDC. If this is all well then I'm happy and I put it all back together and forget about it, unless there's any further running issue or cause for concern.
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Timing belt tensioner questions
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2015, 01:58:04 PM »
It will always show slightly high after being run due to position engine stops in,the slight slack will be on other side of belt. If you gently turn crank with a spanner the pointer will drop back down again.
So long as you set in correct position and it returned there after rotating by hand I would not worry about it.

Offline vpavlov

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Re: Timing belt tensioner questions
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2016, 08:37:16 PM »
Hello.
Thanks for your answers.
I've decided to not worry too much about the matter with the tensioner for now. In maybe 1 month time, when the next oil/filter change is scheduled I will check on the position of the tensioner, according the the insanitybeard's instructions as well as check the condition of the water pump/timing belt/idler pulley.
I would like to thank Insanitybeard for the excellent instructions for timing belt change, posted on this site. It was my main source of detailed information, particularly with Galaxy/Sharan/Alhambra.
Below I will add my particular observations with my timing belt change.
The timing belt kit I bought was from Ruville. Ruville is a part of the Schaeffler Group which owns INA, FAG, Ruville and I believe a part of Continental AG. Everything I read about Ruville parts suggested that it was a quality kit, most probably using pulleys from INA/FAG and Contitech timing belt, at least that was what I expected. I bought the kit, which included the belt, tensioner pulley, idler pulley, water pump, 2 pcs ot studs for the pulleys and two nuts for approx. 95.92 Euros incl shipping. In the end this was included in the kit:
- timing belt, which wore Ruville logo on it and was made in England. After searching the net it became clear the timing belt was Gates (Gates have a factory in England), which is absolutely OK with me.
- tensioner pulley Litens. This is the standard item in every kit whether it is a Contitech, Gates, SKF or Dayco. I think the bearing of the tensioner wasn't branded as in INA, FAG or SKF, which is a little letdown.
- idler pulley with a bearing branded GMB. Apparently GMB is a Korean bearing company, which makes the pulleys for a lot of Japanese/Korean car makes. This was another letdown as I expected INA/FAG idler pulley in this kit. The opinions on the GMB brand on the internet forums wasn't so favourable... so we will see if it lasts.
- water pump, branded Ruville. It appeared a quality piece, I think two or three Italian firms make the water pumps - Bugatti, FAI etc.. The impeller was a plastic one. Apparently there are two types of water pumps in circulation - with plastic.composite and with metal impeller. There are negative opinions on both types of water pumps. All I k now is the old one (original VW) was with a plastic impeller.
- studs and nuts for the tensioners.

If I knew all that information beforehand I would've probaly purchased a INA kit, which was ar. 10 Euros more, but probably contained INA pulleys with FAG bearings. Another nice option with no negative reviews is SKF kit and of course Contitech kit. Dayco is another option although some complain about whinning timing belts after timing belt change.

Now for the tools...
You WILL NEED at least the locking tools for the crankshaft and the camshaft.
It is advisable to use a torque wrench on at least the tensioner pulley, idler pulley and the camshaft bolts.
I used a stud extractor to replace the idler and tensoiner pulleys studs.
It is best if you have access to a good set of 1/2" and 1/4" ratchet sets and also ring spanners etc.

Observations about the actual change of the timing belt:
- in the end I had to do the timing belt change twice (with all the dismantling etc.) as I was not happy with the results the first time - i.e. I had a 3.9 degrees delay on the TDC, according to VagCom and decided to do it again. The first time it took me 2 days - approx 8-10 hours in all, with careful reading of the instructions on this site and change of the water pump. The second time it took me about 3.5 hours (without water pump change).
- in my opinion the timing belt change can be made without lowering/jacking up of the engine. I discovered that jacking up of the engine interfered with the scuttle drain. The lowering of the engine might have interfered with the exhaust pipes. I disconnected the intercooler pipe and the coolant radiator pipe as indicated on this site. Despite this if one has all the needed tools, my opinion is that jackingup/lowering of the engine is needed only when extracting the cast iron engine mounting.
- I had particular difficulties dismantling the two most inaccessible bolts of the cast iron engine mounting. My brother helped me with this one by using a hammer, pipe and a ring spanner.
- the locking tool for the crancshaft is inserted only in direction to the engine, i.e. it slides onto the crankshaft pulley. I couldn't place the locking tool onto the crankshaft pulley from above.
- even when everything with the crankshaft and camshaft locking tools was OK, after several revolutions of the engine by hand and reinserting the locking tools, the end result, using VagCom was -3.9 degrees to TDC. I've done the locking/turning the engine by hand/reinserting the locking tools twice with success, but in the end VagCom showed exactly -3.9 degrees. After that I corrected the above by using this method -
. In the end I had 0 degrees exactly by using this method.
- When replacing the water pump I used a silicone grease to hold the O-ring in place while positioning the new water pump.
- It took about 6.5 litres of antifreeze to fill the system - I have an Alhambra with a radiator/heater in the back.
- I used Loctite 243 on the nuts for the idler pulley and tensioner pulley and also for the bolts for the crankshaft pulley and timing belt covers.
- For the peace of mind I used torque wrenches on all the bolts/nuts listed in the article of Insanitybeard, except for the most inaccessible on the cast iron engine mount.
- I changed the studs for the tensioner and the idler pulley. Extracting them was pretty easy, at least not so scarry as I was expecting. When installing the new studs one should be warry about inserting them to the end of the thread. I used Loctite for the studs also.
- One should be aware that the above studs are screwed in an aluminium, so the torque for tensioning the pulleys is critical - too much and the aluminium threads will pull, too little and the tensioner will slip.

Thanks.
 

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: Timing belt tensioner questions
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2016, 06:17:09 PM »
I think you'll find Litens is possibly part of the INA group (as is Ruville) as I've purchased a couple of INA boxed products (timing belt tensioner and auxiliary belt tensioner), and the actual items within the box were both branded Litens. I wouldn't worry too much about the GMB idler roller, my Galaxy has exactly the same component fitted (supplied with the Dayco timing belt kit). The idler doesn't do much work really, I think it's primarily there to ensure the belt stays routed around the crankshaft sprocket properly and maintain an even belt tension.
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline Bendling

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Re: Timing belt tensioner questions
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2016, 05:41:59 AM »
I would also like to add my thanks to insanitybeard for his brilliantly clear guide to changing the timing belt.
I bought a Contitech kit, and called Mr Clutch in Swindon. £285 just for labour. No thanks.
Six hours on my driveway, job done. Not bad for my first ever belt change.
Again, many thanks!

Offline johnnyroper

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Re: Timing belt tensioner questions
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2016, 08:28:43 AM »
Whilst I wouldn't advise a complete novice to do a belt change for someone with some mechanical knowledge and the tools it is a relatively simple procedure if you take your time and always rotate by hand a couple of times and re check timing marks.
No way I would pay £285 labour especially to outfits like mr clutch.

Offline insanitybeard

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Re: Timing belt tensioner questions
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2016, 11:33:34 AM »
I would also like to add my thanks to insanitybeard for his brilliantly clear guide to changing the timing belt.
I bought a Contitech kit, and called Mr Clutch in Swindon. £285 just for labour. No thanks.
Six hours on my driveway, job done. Not bad for my first ever belt change.
Again, many thanks!

 [GJ] Glad to be of service!
Always learning..... Often by mistakes!

Offline vpavlov

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Re: Timing belt tensioner questions
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2016, 06:27:31 AM »
Well... I checked the timing belt tensioner yesterday. With cold engine, rotated the crank several revolutions clockwise and then managed to place the camshaft approximately to TDC. To my surprise the pointer on the timing belt tensioner was exactly in the middle of the gap, i.e. correctly tensioned. Thanks again Insanitybeard for the excellent manual for changing the timing belt. (and for purchasing jack, jackstands, locking tools, torque wrenches - all four of them, etc.  ;D)
Next on the list is changing the clutch slave cylinder (whining after 7 months of service) and finding this elusive air conditioning leak.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 06:35:18 AM by vpavlov »

 

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