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Author Topic: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...  (Read 7844 times)

Offline mole

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Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« on: April 23, 2012, 06:25:04 PM »
Hi all,

Had a total loss of drive on a 2002 Tdi 6 speed 115, and been pointed to the half-shaft spline joint.

There was no red dust around the joint, so I marked the inner and outer covers, then ran the engine in gear - with the car not moving, and making a "graunching" noise. The two marks on the shaft were still aligned after this, so I took the shaft out to have a look. The splines look pretty good - can't upload a photo as I don't have the right cable with me - but I'm certain they've not been moving over each other.

So - anyone any ideas what it could be? The clutch was rattling on idle beforehand (I had thought gearbox bearing, but a YouTube video of a worn DMF/clutch sounded exactly like mine) and I did have the reported signs of this joint failing :

Graunching noise on acceleration - worse when hot
Clunk when throttling on / off - similar to engine mount play
Gears a little stiff when hot - GF couldn't engage first gear

Any pointers appreciated


Graham

Offline mole

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2012, 06:26:56 PM »
.. and how hard is it to remove the gearbox? I've an overhead crane available, two scissor jacks and two axle stands...

Offline mole

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2012, 06:43:18 PM »
could a med please move this into the right place? I put  this in "reference" by mistake. Thanks

Offline Mirez

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2012, 08:31:07 AM »
Not removed the gearbox before but it seems to have reasonable access once all that gubbins around has been removed.

The splines are quite obvious if they are worn, if you've had it apart and it didn't look worn then you can rule them out - did you get under the car? It may help you to sit the front on axle stands and then run it, probably with an assistant to hold the brakes on slightly and see if you can visually see what is/isn't turning.
03 Ford Galaxy 1.9 TDI 115 Ghia in Spruce Green Metallic
With cream leather interior, Full Bodykit, Remapped at 145bhp, Lowered on 18's
06 VW EOS 2.0 T-FSI 210 Sport in Deep Black Pearl
With red leather interior with full Caractere bodykit, Remapped at 255bhp and sitting on 19's
14 VW Tiguan 2.0 TDI 177 R-Line in Deep Black Pearl
With black leather interior, panoramic sunroof and bi-xenon headlights.
08 Ford Transit 2.2 TDI 115 in Frozen White
With retrofitted everything except another slidey door! :)

VCDS HEX/CAN - Scans/Coding done in Wiltshire in exchange for winegums! :)

Offline bigjeeze

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2012, 10:16:09 AM »
I have removed the gearbox ( Nto replacew the clutch) and apart from the fact that it is very heavy it is not a difficult job. You have to take it out from underneath , you also have to support the engine once you have removed the nearside gearbox mounting ( this is under the battery tray). As regards testing , Mirez is right, put it on axle stands and then run it whilst watching from underneath. ( I also have had the splines issue!) Although I recall I did have lots of dust I don't think that the splines looked that bad but until the terric torque that actual drive applies is used you don't realise just how little it takes to slip.
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Offline Mirez

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2012, 10:52:38 AM »
terric torque

Award for most technical word used in a post so far go's to you mate :)
03 Ford Galaxy 1.9 TDI 115 Ghia in Spruce Green Metallic
With cream leather interior, Full Bodykit, Remapped at 145bhp, Lowered on 18's
06 VW EOS 2.0 T-FSI 210 Sport in Deep Black Pearl
With red leather interior with full Caractere bodykit, Remapped at 255bhp and sitting on 19's
14 VW Tiguan 2.0 TDI 177 R-Line in Deep Black Pearl
With black leather interior, panoramic sunroof and bi-xenon headlights.
08 Ford Transit 2.2 TDI 115 in Frozen White
With retrofitted everything except another slidey door! :)

VCDS HEX/CAN - Scans/Coding done in Wiltshire in exchange for winegums! :)

Offline Chrispb

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2012, 11:12:14 AM »
Careful Mark I got a right slating for about a week on the old site when I mentioned about checking spelling, so I'm not even going to mention it cya
PS it wasn't you BJ
2009 Kia Sedona GS In Black 2.9CRDI 183PS. 5 Speed Manual WAV.
2003 MK2 Galaxy Ghia In Solid Black 1.9 TDI 115PS. 5 Speed Automatic.

Upgraded Eberspächer booster heater  to independent heating with 7 day timer.

With VCDS lite (full version) need a code clearing or want to scan for faults in the north kent area, PM me.
All for a pint of Strongbow.

The FordMPV.com Forum - The free forum for questions and answers relating to the Ford Galaxy, S-Max and C-Max

Offline Mirez

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2012, 11:44:01 AM »
Oh is that a typo? Damn! I thought that was a type of torque I wasn't familiar with and I was genuinely impressed.
03 Ford Galaxy 1.9 TDI 115 Ghia in Spruce Green Metallic
With cream leather interior, Full Bodykit, Remapped at 145bhp, Lowered on 18's
06 VW EOS 2.0 T-FSI 210 Sport in Deep Black Pearl
With red leather interior with full Caractere bodykit, Remapped at 255bhp and sitting on 19's
14 VW Tiguan 2.0 TDI 177 R-Line in Deep Black Pearl
With black leather interior, panoramic sunroof and bi-xenon headlights.
08 Ford Transit 2.2 TDI 115 in Frozen White
With retrofitted everything except another slidey door! :)

VCDS HEX/CAN - Scans/Coding done in Wiltshire in exchange for winegums! :)

Offline mole

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2012, 06:35:27 PM »
It's going OK if a little slowly - no decent jack so had to lift the car with a crane and then chocked on wood...  only issues are the catalyst to front pipe nuts are so rusted they would shear, and the sleeve joint behind the catalystis pretty well seized. Hoping an overnight WD40 soak will help, or maybe I can just leave the exhaust loose... ?  Also the inner driveshafts don't want to come out of the g/box... manual says "carefully lever" but a screwdriver can't get enough purchase. Hoping that maybe splitting the n/s driveshaft at the inner boot will give enough clearance but we will see... also as the o/s half shaft is out I'm hoping to be able to leave the small stub in place.

It's too late to test it any further, but the marks on thetwo  metal covers of that inner halfshaft joint didn't move out of alignment after forcing it to slip. It would slip with the slightest torque, the car could just crawl forward on the flat but not get up a half inch step. It could do with a clutch and flywheel anyway, and the slow warm up fixed (I've seen the thread on here), then I'm hoping it'll be good for years

Offline bigjeeze

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2012, 10:05:54 AM »
Careful Mark I got a right slating for about a week on the old site when I mentioned about checking spelling, so I'm not even going to mention it cya
PS it wasn't you BJ

Armholes!  :P I didn't notice that there is a spell checker!! I need to slow down when I type!!
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Offline bigjeeze

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2012, 10:11:10 AM »
It's going OK if a little slowly - no decent jack so had to lift the car with a crane and then chocked on wood...  only issues are the catalyst to front pipe nuts are so rusted they would shear, and the sleeve joint behind the catalystis pretty well seized. Hoping an overnight WD40 soak will help, or maybe I can just leave the exhaust loose... ?  Also the inner driveshafts don't want to come out of the g/box... manual says "carefully lever" but a screwdriver can't get enough purchase. Hoping that maybe splitting the n/s driveshaft at the inner boot will give enough clearance but we will see... also as the o/s half shaft is out I'm hoping to be able to leave the small stub in place.

It's too late to test it any further, but the marks on thetwo  metal covers of that inner halfshaft joint didn't move out of alignment after forcing it to slip. It would slip with the slightest torque, the car could just crawl forward on the flat but not get up a half inch step. It could do with a clutch and flywheel anyway, and the slow warm up fixed (I've seen the thread on here), then I'm hoping it'll be good for years

Do you need to remove the exhaust/Cat to take the gearbox out? I didn't as far as I recall.  Also the inner d/shafts - do you mean the stub axles? Once you have removed the hex bolts from the inner d/shaft you then need to remove a hex bolt inside the stub axle to remove it doesn't just come out. Sorry if I am talking rubbish here!! My brain is as good as my typing!!
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Offline mole

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2012, 05:59:42 PM »
You're right - the exhaust didn't need to come off - I was just following the manual (tho' Halfords only had the 95 - 00 Haynes). The n/s driveshaft - complete - is still attached to the box. The inner joint was supposed to just prise out, but it's not moving. Perhaps it needs splitting at the torq bolts?

Must be some trick to take the flywheel off as the torq bolts are covered by a cage - only one lines up - probably needs turning? maybe threaded as a cover in case the bolts come loose?

Anyway, going to put the clutch & gearbox in the boot and take it back down South tonight.

Offline mole

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2012, 10:02:32 AM »
This is the halfshaft spline : 614-0

and the gearbox had to come out like this, as the driveshaft inner joints will not just slide out of the box - on both sides. Maybe due to a problem with the box?

616-1

Offline Mirez

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2012, 11:57:31 AM »
Can you take an end on photo of the splines - its hard to make out the profile from that picture.

The splined joint is only on the drivers side, once you've undone the 6 bolts that hold the drive shaft to the output shaft then it should just pop off at that union- if its tight then you can normally use a chisel to separate them.

Not sure about the cage, do you have photos of that?

Kudos on the job though, looks like you are well prepared!
03 Ford Galaxy 1.9 TDI 115 Ghia in Spruce Green Metallic
With cream leather interior, Full Bodykit, Remapped at 145bhp, Lowered on 18's
06 VW EOS 2.0 T-FSI 210 Sport in Deep Black Pearl
With red leather interior with full Caractere bodykit, Remapped at 255bhp and sitting on 19's
14 VW Tiguan 2.0 TDI 177 R-Line in Deep Black Pearl
With black leather interior, panoramic sunroof and bi-xenon headlights.
08 Ford Transit 2.2 TDI 115 in Frozen White
With retrofitted everything except another slidey door! :)

VCDS HEX/CAN - Scans/Coding done in Wiltshire in exchange for winegums! :)

Offline mole

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2012, 03:19:29 PM »
This is the 'cage' covering the flywheel bolts - only one torq bolt lines up with the holes.. my guess is it can be knocked round?628-0

and I'm wondering if someone has replaced the dual-mass flywheel with a solid one - doesn't look very "dual mass" to me, tho' I've never seen one
630-1

I left the o/s inner driveshaft up in Sheffield (yeah, daft as it would have been handy to have here, but I was rushing), but this is the female spline
632-2

Had most of the tools except the 21 quid trolley jack wasn't up to much and I'm getting a decent 18mm socket before it goes back together. Gantry cranes come in very handy too - for lifting the car and then for supporting the engine

Been searching for threads on gearbox rebuilds but not found one, I'd be a bit blind as I can't find a Galaxy TIS CD anywhere, and the Haynes site states the manual for 00 - 06 models isn't out until next month.

Offline Mirez

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2012, 06:07:45 PM »
It would appear so, a read HERE may help you as it looks to be what you have.

The female spline section looks fine, its still greased which is the main reason why they fail so I think you are fine!

There is a Ford TIS CD available for the Galaxy 1 & 2, there are site on-line that you can download them from although its illegal. There are also members on here that you could PM for a copy... ;)
03 Ford Galaxy 1.9 TDI 115 Ghia in Spruce Green Metallic
With cream leather interior, Full Bodykit, Remapped at 145bhp, Lowered on 18's
06 VW EOS 2.0 T-FSI 210 Sport in Deep Black Pearl
With red leather interior with full Caractere bodykit, Remapped at 255bhp and sitting on 19's
14 VW Tiguan 2.0 TDI 177 R-Line in Deep Black Pearl
With black leather interior, panoramic sunroof and bi-xenon headlights.
08 Ford Transit 2.2 TDI 115 in Frozen White
With retrofitted everything except another slidey door! :)

VCDS HEX/CAN - Scans/Coding done in Wiltshire in exchange for winegums! :)

Offline mole

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2012, 08:51:01 PM »
I'm getting more confused now I think !! Looking at the DMF cut-away views, a DMF failure could cause the loss of drive, and I knew the DMF was on its way out. If that's the case I could leave the gearbox alone...  but the fitted flywheel looks like a solid one, yet the torque bolt covering "cage" looks like the pic from twotone showing a slipped DMF. Should have had a better look and taken photos before I cleaned up and changed out of the overalls - as it was I just stuck my (clean) arm back under the car with the camera!

Think I need to sleep on it....

Offline Mirez

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2012, 09:23:36 PM »
What mileage is your's on? Did it look/feel like its been disturbed before? DMF's are the only thing fitted from factory to all the dervs so unless its been taken apart before you should have one!

To be fair the manual gearbox's on Galaxy's are fairly indestructible - I'm struggling to remember any that have failed...
03 Ford Galaxy 1.9 TDI 115 Ghia in Spruce Green Metallic
With cream leather interior, Full Bodykit, Remapped at 145bhp, Lowered on 18's
06 VW EOS 2.0 T-FSI 210 Sport in Deep Black Pearl
With red leather interior with full Caractere bodykit, Remapped at 255bhp and sitting on 19's
14 VW Tiguan 2.0 TDI 177 R-Line in Deep Black Pearl
With black leather interior, panoramic sunroof and bi-xenon headlights.
08 Ford Transit 2.2 TDI 115 in Frozen White
With retrofitted everything except another slidey door! :)

VCDS HEX/CAN - Scans/Coding done in Wiltshire in exchange for winegums! :)

Offline mole

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2012, 10:05:03 PM »
It's on 125,000 miles, so not really too high. The clutch friction plate is very rattly and loose on the inner boss, so it looks pretty old. There was no sign of the gearbox having been taken out, and it wouldn't be likely to go through a clutch every 60,000 miles.

We've not had it long, it had 119,000 on the clock when we bought it, and it came with plenty of history  - all the MoT's, receipts for two cambelts, EGR valve, compressor pulley, aircon pump, routine services and service items, but nothing for a clutch....

Thanks for your advice - it's put my mind at rest. I'll leave the gearbox alone for now, order up a DMF and clutch then head back to Sheff when they turn up and strip the old flywheel. I'm sure it'll be trashed, but if it does look fine I could open the gearbox up then, any bits would probably be available within a day or two.   

Offline bigjeeze

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2012, 04:31:27 PM »
I replaced my clutch with the DMF at 138k miles. I had no idea whether or not the DMF was u/s but as no one could tell me how to test  I thought I'd rather replace it as I didn't want to remove the gearbox a second time. I replaced the original dmf & clutch with a LUX unit. As for the cage I just don't remember whether or not it moves round to align the wholes - It could therefore be buggered!
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Offline mole

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2012, 11:02:03 PM »
Once I'd got the DMF off the two parts could be rotated about 40 degrees by hand  ???

All sorted and back on the road - picked up a Sachs DMF/clutch kit & cylinder from Darkside in Barsnley, who seem a helpful bunch. Had a word about the cage and they advised just to grind it off if it won't rotate, which I did.

Bit of fiddling about getting the gearbox and subframe re-fitted (working on my own) but no great dramas, should have bought a clutch alignment tool but positioned it by eye and it worked OK.

It's now smoother and quieter on idle and take off than it was when we bought it; I still need to adjust up the g/box linkages, bleed the clutch properly and have the wheel alignment re-done but at least it's back home now.  :D

Offline bigjeeze

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Re: Total loss of drive - not the half shaft joint...
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2012, 12:50:36 PM »
Well done!! I have now completed 50k miles since I changed mine so I am happy I did something right!!
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