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Large MPVs -- Ford Galaxy / VW Sharan / SEAT Alhambra: => Ford Galaxy / VW Sharan / SEAT Alhambra => Topic started by: vpavlov on January 28, 2017, 07:50:42 PM

Title: Turbo damage??
Post by: vpavlov on January 28, 2017, 07:50:42 PM
Hello all.
I've been a long time lurker on this forum, but the time has come to ask questions, regarding possible turbo damage to my Seat Alhambra. The Seat is a 2005 ASZ, 131BHP TDI in relatively good condition with 220000 km. on the odometer. Yesterday when overtaking a truck on the highway with about  100 km/h, the car suddenly lost power and started emitting a hissing or whistling noise according to the RPM's. At first I thought it was a flat tire, but it wasn't the case. I managed to stop at the bank and started to investigate the matter. As said the whistling noise was in accordance with the RPM's of the engine. The noise was more pronounced at the right side of the engine. As we were around 50 km. from home, I started to drive the car in a hope that the problem was a mere ruptured hose in the turbo section. The car gradually lost more power in around 1 km. and eventually stalled. As I didn't want more adventures the car was towed on a platform truck to our warehouse.

Today I and my brother started to investigate the matter. In a German Sharan forum I've read hoe to diagnose a troublesome turbo.
This is what we did:
- checked the dashboard for any errors - none were visible
- checked the motor oil level - it was exactly in the middle of the stick - it was OK.
- disconnected the hose of the turbo from the AGR. There was a small amount of oil in the hose, like 10 drops - maybe normal for a car with this mileage.
- removed all the glow plugs form the engine. All of the glow plugs were clean with the exception of that on cylinder number 4??? - the rightmost when viewing the engine. That glow plug had small amount of oil on the heating element.
- removed the connector for the PD elements (injectors)

After that I placed rags in front of the bores for the glowplugs and cranked the engine with the starter. I was expecting (according to the german forum for a  case when a turbo had gone bad) some motor oil to fly out of the bores, but that was not the case. No oil was flying out of the glowplug bores.
Next I installed back the glowplugs and connected the connector for the PD injectors. The hose of the turbo to the AGR remained disconnected. According to the german forum, in this state (with disconnected AGR pipe) the turbo is isolated form the engine and if the engine fires up OK then the problem is with the turbo. I tried to start the engine - it started but stalled in about 5-6 seconds. After it stalled, a large sign of motor oil appeared on the dashboard - as if there was a problem with the oil level or oil pressure. I haven't seen this sign before of course. The strange thing is that it appeared when the angine was already stalled. Tried again, but with the same effect. 
Next I installed the turbo pipe to the AGR valve and tried to start the engine with the turbo connected. The engine wouldn't start at all. Tried this twice but to no avail.

Then I made a scan of all errors, using VAGCOM.
Below are the results:
VAG-COM Version: Release 704.1
Data version: 20071016


Chassis Type: 7M - Seat Alhambra
Scan: 01 02 03 08 09 15 16 17 18 19 22 25 29 36 37 39 45 46 55 56
VIN: VSSZZZ7MZ5V510585   Mileage: 223120km/138640miles
Address 01: Engine       Labels: 038-906-019.LBL
   Part No: 038 906 019 NA
   Component: 1,9l R4 EDC G000SG  6248
   Coding: 00005
   Shop #: WSC 00020
   VSSZZZ7MZ5V510585     VWZ1Z0D2739525

1 Fault Found:
18072 - Control Circuit for PD Injectors: Electrical Malfunction
            P1664 - 35-00 -  -
Readiness: 0 0 X X X

Address 03: ABS Brakes       Labels: None
   Part No: 7M3 907 379 E
   Component: ESP FRONT MK25      0102
   Coding: 0006154
   Shop #: WSC 00020

1 Fault Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module
            013 - Check DTC Memory - Intermittent

Address 18: Aux. Heat       Labels: None
   Part No: 7M3 815 071 B
   Component: HEIZG. B/D5W       0001

5 Faults Found:
01413 - Dosing/Metering Pump (V54)
            29-00 - Short to Ground
01413 - Dosing/Metering Pump (V54)
            29-00 - Short to Ground
01413 - Dosing/Metering Pump (V54)
            29-00 - Short to Ground
01413 - Dosing/Metering Pump (V54)
            29-00 - Short to Ground
01413 - Dosing/Metering Pump (V54)
            29-00 - Short to Ground

I am quoting only the errors. The error with the auxiliary heater was there for a long time - the control circuit is toasted.
The errors of the Engine and ABS brakes are new. The error with the engine PD injectors probably occured when the PD injectors were disconnected by me. The error with the ABS brakes (ESP) I don't know... probably unrelated to the problem with the turbo.

My questions are:
Why the engine stalls when the turbo pipe is disconnected?
Why after it stalls in the above circumstances, the "engine oil" sign appears, even though the oil level is OK and the engine isn't running in this noment?
Why the engine won't start at all with turbo hose connected?
Can it be anything else than the turbo?

Thanks in advance to anybody who can chime in with advice.

Title: Re: Turbo damage??
Post by: Kristaps Baltais on January 28, 2017, 08:21:37 PM
i might be wrong but you are overthinking this. it seems that you have splited turbo hose, and air is escaping befor geting to engine
Title: Re: Turbo damage??
Post by: insanitybeard on January 28, 2017, 11:45:26 PM
As above, the symptoms you describe sound like a split air charge/ intercooler hose, have you had a good look around underneath to make sure all of the boost hoses are secure and not split? Having said that if a hose was split I would expect a fault code to have been logged for pressure deviation. If you feel that the turbo may be fault then firstly I would consider pulling off the air feed pipe which runs from the airbox down to the turbo and seeing if there is any significant play (movement) in the turbo spindle and compressor wheel, and also see if it (the compressor wheel) spins freely without fouling the housing. The oil pressure light coming on I would think would be normal, if the engine stalls with the ignition still on then the oil pressure lamp will come on as the oil pump will no longer be running and the oil pressure sensor simply detects the loss of oil pressure in the system.
Title: Re: Turbo damage??
Post by: vpavlov on January 29, 2017, 07:48:28 AM
Thanks for all the answers.
How would be the best way to access the air feed pipe for the turbo - from above or from below?
Is it relatively easy to do this?
I've dismantled the AGR/intake collector for cleaning before, but the turbo hasn't been tinkered with up to now.
I suppose the air feed runs like this:
- air filter to intercooler
- intercooler to turbo
- turbo to agr
-agr to intake collector
Am I right?
Title: Re: Turbo damage??
Post by: insanitybeard on January 29, 2017, 09:02:00 AM
If you're lucky you might be able to check it from the top simply by removing the airbox and then the pipe which runs down from the MAF sensor to the turbo compressor housing inlet- as long as you are able to access the spring clamp which secures the pipe/ duct to the turbo. If you can't access it you'd have to do it from underneath, where the intermediate driveshaft runs along the back of the engine block.

The air charge pipework is as follows:

1) airbox to turbo compressor wheel housing inlet (no pressure in this section)
2) turbo compressor wheel housing outlet to intercooler- this comes out of the bottom of the turbo and passes along the side of the sump in an aluminium tube (which clamps to the sump) on the timing belt side of the engine.
3) intercooler to EGR valve and inlet manifold- this passes up and over the gearbox along the side of the rocker cover near the battery.
Title: Re: Turbo damage??
Post by: vpavlov on February 08, 2017, 10:12:21 PM
In the end it was a turbo damage.
I managed to detach the hose from the air filter to the turbo and saw the turbine wheel disintegrated inside.
In a matter of maybe two days I managed to dismantle the intake manifold, exhaust flex pipe from the turbo, air filter, various turbo pipes, oil pipes and turbo. I managed to extract the turbo from above relatively easy.
This evening I managed to disassemble the turbo.
The intake turbine wheel has broken free of the axis and shattered in pieces
The exhaust turbine wheel was stuck in the housing.
 The VTG was in a good state - easy moving and relatively clean for a 12 year old car
The housings of the turbo - both inlet and exhaust bore marks from the wheels.
Below are pictures from the turbo:
Title: Re: Turbo damage??
Post by: vpavlov on February 08, 2017, 10:22:40 PM
Here are the pictures:[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Turbo damage??
Post by: vpavlov on February 08, 2017, 10:34:00 PM
My main question is:
Is it possible to just change the  CHRA with the housing bearing these marks from the flying turbine wheels?u
Of course I can use a very fine sandpaper to smoothen the housings.
Or should I purchase a whole turbo unit?
When I think of it, all refurbished turbos are using housings that may have been damaged the same way by the turbine wheels.
On the other hand I don't want to again endure dismantling a turbo in the near future - not a very pleasing experience and mainly - the car is my work car - time is money. 

The CHRA costs around 140 Euros.
The whole turbo unit costs around 390 euros and requires returning the faluty unit to the seller.
I dont intend to purchase a turbo from Bulgaria (that's where I'm from) as the local sellers, garages are a complete joke.
So I may purchase it from Germany or UK.

Can anybody give me and advice?
Title: Re: Turbo damage??
Post by: insanitybeard on February 08, 2017, 11:05:31 PM
As a compromise, you could consider buying a used but sold as working turbo from the likes of [eBay] and then rebuilding it with a new cartridge, this might not be much cheaper than a complete refurbished unit though. As the compressor wheel housing is made of aluminium I'm guessing that this has suffered more damage than the stronger cast iron turbine wheel housing?
Title: Re: Turbo damage??
Post by: johnnyroper on February 09, 2017, 04:07:47 AM
I wouldn't change CHRA and try to clean up that housing it's far to damaged for that. A reconditioned one is the way to go in my opinion.
Yes a reconditioned one could have had that happen previously but part of the rebuild process will be to correctly repair the damage not just sand it smooth.
Title: Re: Turbo damage??
Post by: Chrispb on February 09, 2017, 04:33:36 AM
Have to agree with Johnny those housings are to far gone, a complete unit is the way to go.
Title: Re: Turbo damage??
Post by: mike wilson on February 09, 2017, 09:27:23 AM
The other thing to check is why it broke in the first place.  It sounds like a possible explanation could be that the bearing pack was starved of lubrication, seized and sheared the spindle.  If this was due to partial blockage of oil lines, the same fate awaits the next turbo when you try to overtake.  Or, maybe, the wrong type/grade of oil was used.  In any case, an oil change (thoroughly inspecting the outgoing oil) and check of the state of external oil lines should be part of the renovation.
Title: Re: Turbo damage??
Post by: johnnyroper on February 09, 2017, 11:58:10 AM
It is recommended to renew the oil lines when turbo is removed,most recon companies stipulate they are changed or the warranty is void,also say oil and filter and air filter are usually a requirement to keep the warranty.
Title: Re: Turbo damage??
Post by: insanitybeard on February 09, 2017, 03:18:21 PM
Whilst it's important to make sure there's no underlying external cause for the failure, you won't always find one-especially if the vehicle's done a lot of miles, or it's had lots of stop/start town driving with the engine hardly ever running in a fully warmed up state and/or the owner hasn't been careful to let the engine idle for a few seconds after engine start up/ shut down to ensure sufficient lubrication to the turbo whilst it spins up from rest or slows down.

Chris ( changed the unit due to a bit of play in the shaft and oil consumption, but that doesn't mean there was some sinister underlying cause.
Title: Re: Turbo damage??
Post by: vpavlov on February 09, 2017, 07:48:24 PM
Thanks for all the answers guys.
I've just purchased a whole reconditioned unit.
The oil I always used was Fuchs Titan 5W40 (505.01).
The last oil change was like 3000 km. before the turbo broke.
I've done the oil changes averaging 9000-13000 km. between them.
My opinion is that the shaft had a considerable play in it and there became a moment when the play was too big and the compressor wheel colided with the housing. For all the time i had the car (4 years and 110000 km.) the turbo always was whining on startup and the whine disappeared after several kilometers.
 Now my plan is to:
- change the inlet oil pipe with a new one - original vw
- clean the outlet oil pipe
- clean all the turbo pipework
- clean the intake manifold
- replace the AGR with a new one - the old one was leaking oil
- fit all needed gaskets and seals :
   - seal on the AGR
   - gaskets on both side of pipe from AGR to heat exchanger
   - gaskets on both sides of the pipe turbo to heat exchanger
   - gasket intake manifold to engine
   - gasket exhaust manifold to engine
   - gasket turbo to flex pipe
   - rubber ring on connection on the turbo from air filter
   - ring on the oil input pipe
   - gasket on the oil output pipe
-  make an oil and oil filter change

If anyone has recomendations for  the list of gaskets/seals please add a reply?
I intend to use Elring gaskets if available.
I don't intend to replace the studs for the exhaust manifold on the engine - all of them are in relatively good condition without damage.

I have concerns about routing/fitting the oil inlet pipe as it has an odd form and passes over or under all kind of hoses and corrugated pipes, but we'll see...

I don't intend 
Title: Re: Turbo damage??
Post by: johnnyroper on February 09, 2017, 09:21:16 PM
Personally I would only change inlet and exhaust gaskets,the oil connection gaskets usually come with the turbo. I wouldn't bother with the air intake seal as it's unlikely to be damaged and is not under any pressure.

The oil pipe can be wiggled out and back in place fairly easy once the P clips securing it are removed.
Title: Re: Turbo damage??
Post by: vpavlov on February 23, 2017, 08:08:17 PM
Hello again.
Some more pictures from the failed turbo:
Looks to me that the shaft broke when the compressor wheel struck the housing, the main reason being too much play in the shaft. The ammount of play is seen in the last images. The shaft itself is a little brown colored but bears no obvious drag marks or anything showing lack of oil. Maybe 230000 km. is enough for a turbo???
Now it's time for mounting the new (reconditioned) turbo.
Do anyone knows the proper torque figures for:
- connection of the input oil line to the turbo and to the side of the oil filter housing
- conneciton of the oil output line to the turbo and the sump
- the bolts for the intake manifold
- the nuts for the exhaust manifold
- the three bolts of the AGR to intake manifold connection
- the bolts for the pipes from AGR to heat exchanger and heat exchanger to turbo
And another question:
Is there a proper way to measure the blowby of the crankcase gasses?

Thanks in advance.

Title: Re: Turbo damage??
Post by: vpavlov on March 15, 2017, 10:02:10 PM
This is what I found ou about the torque figures for the turbot:
- adapter for the oil input line on the lower part of the oil filter housing - 35Nm
- adapter for the oil input line on the top of the  turbo - 29Nm
- connection of the input oil line to the turbo and to the side of the oil filter housing - 22Nm
- conneciton of the oil output line to the turbo (2 pcs.) - 17Nm
- conneciton of the oil output line to the sump - 30Nm
- the bolts for the intake manifold - 25Nm
- the nuts for the exhaust manifold - 20Nm
- the nuts form the turbo exhaust to plexpipe - 20Nm

Please check the above figures with another source before using.