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Large MPVs -- Ford Galaxy / VW Sharan / SEAT Alhambra: => Mk3 Ford Galaxy / Ford S-Max => Topic started by: drjaking on October 02, 2019, 09:17:20 AM

Title: DIY timing belt?
Post by: drjaking on October 02, 2019, 09:17:20 AM
Anyone done this? Mine is due, and local prices are making me think I could do it, even though I've not dine any engine jobs for about 20 years! A couple of Youtube videos suggest it's not that complicated as long as you understand the method for locking the cam and crank shafts. Galaxy seems to have good access to do it without messing with engine mounts. For me, the main challenge might be not having an impact wrench to get the big pulley off.

Any advice? Useful documents/links?

2010 2.0TDCI (140) Powershift.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: mike wilson on October 03, 2019, 11:00:22 AM
There's plenty of information online about the job.  Not much in the knowledge bases on here but plenty more elsewhere, especially here:
https://talkford.com/community/forum/99-diesel-engines-mk4-mondeo/

Are you aware of the servicing requirements for powershift boxes and the consequences of not adhering to them?  If not, plenty of horror stories here:
https://talkford.com/community/forum/278-drivetrain-mk4-mondeo/
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: drjaking on October 03, 2019, 11:22:22 AM
Thanks Mike, very helpful. Do you mean the need to change the transmission fluid? Or is there something else?
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: mike wilson on October 04, 2019, 09:09:58 AM
Oil and filter every 37,000 miles, without fail.  Not ATF, unfortunately - it's a different, very expensive substance.  Horrendously so if you buy Ford's.  Various places offer alternatives that brings the price down to mid-£100, plus filter plus labour.  The change sequence is quite complex and slightly wasteful of this liquid gold, also.

I say without fail because there are numerous instances of poorly maintained boxes that do fail, expensively.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on October 04, 2019, 07:19:45 PM
It sounds like a terrible design. Are there any benefits of this high-maintenance gearbox design?
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: johnnyroper on October 04, 2019, 10:49:19 PM
Yes it is a very quick changing gearbox as itís a dual clutch design so has the gear either side of what you are in selected. Donít think itís quite as refined as the bmw DCT version mind.
I wouldnít say itís a terrible design just hard on its oil due to the wet clutch packs.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: mike wilson on October 07, 2019, 08:37:41 AM
Same gearbox as used on many marques.  The differences in refinement of operation are probably down to soft/firmware.  There is a very similar design with dry clutches.  Apparently, that has even more problems....

One useful tip is to check the filter for small particles of white plastic.  This denotes failure of some internal parts that are quite (comparatively? relatively?) cheap to replace before they fail entirely.

edit: Another benefit of these boxes is that their fuel economy is comparable to manual boxes, unlike normal slushboxes.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: drjaking on October 07, 2019, 09:24:21 AM
Thanks. I've decided to do the transmission fluid myself (no garage seems to know) but found a well recommended place for the timing belt and water pump @ £320 which is worth it for me.

With the gearbox oil, do you know where I can find authoritative torque settings for three plugs and filter?

I'm going to have to do it on the ground, has anyone managed without removing the wheel? I don't axle stands.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: johnnyroper on October 07, 2019, 09:58:39 AM
I donít think you will be able to do it without having car on axle stands you just wonít have the room to get underneath. Might be worth investing in some stands and a jack if you plan on doing yourself.

Failing that find an auto box place they will have all the gear and know how to do it for you.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: drjaking on October 07, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
I have a cunning plan... My street has a steep camber. In the past, I've driven both wheels on one side unto the kerb. It levels the car and I can get under. So the question is less about access to the underside, more about whether I will be able to get to the level plug?

I've used axle stands in the past, and they terrify me.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: johnnyroper on October 07, 2019, 12:14:18 PM
Not familiar with the powershift but on the bmw box I did it required car to be perfectly level and then follow a sequence to fill it. Basically fill to spill,out plug in run car and rev to 2k for a minute and then let box to warm up to 40 degrees on idle and top level up again until it spills. Engine must be running still then refit the plug.

I assume powershift will be similar,as for the level plug being a front wheel drive I suspect it will be on nearside but gaining access with wheel on I am not so sure, have you searched online for any guides to give you an idea where it is etc?
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: drjaking on October 07, 2019, 01:11:27 PM
Just looked at some videos. Alan Howett had one for a Mondeo Mk4 and said the wheel didn't need to come off. I think my access will be OK, but it might be tricky getting sockets on the various plugs. Other than that though, I'm going to give it a go. Found a kit of 7ltr fluid and a filter on ebay for ~£80 which makes it far less eye-watering than the hundreds Ford quoted a while back (from memory, £265)
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: drjaking on October 07, 2019, 01:13:30 PM
Just looked at some videos. Alan Howett had one for a Mondeo Mk4 and said the wheel didn't need to come off. I think my access will be OK, but it might be tricky getting sockets on the various plugs. Other than that though, I'm going to give it a go. Found a kit of 7ltr fluid and a filter on ebay for ~£80 which makes it far less eye-watering than the hundreds Ford quoted a while back (from memory, £265)
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: mike wilson on October 08, 2019, 08:58:09 AM
Just looked at some videos. Alan Howett had one for a Mondeo Mk4 and said the wheel didn't need to come off. I think my access will be OK, but it might be tricky getting sockets on the various plugs. Other than that though, I'm going to give it a go. Found a kit of 7ltr fluid and a filter on ebay for ~£80 which makes it far less eye-watering than the hundreds Ford quoted a while back (from memory, £265)


As Johnny says, the vehicle needs to be elevated and _perfectly_ level to do the auto box.  Maybe you can find one of those places that leases time on a hoist?  Most of your hour would be waiting for the old oil to drain. 8 -)

Torque figures in this video.  Odd that someone with so much experience with these motive units has not done one before.
https://youtu.be/CERqRSK2SWM
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: mike wilson on October 08, 2019, 09:01:47 AM
p.s If you drop me your email address in a PM, I will send you something useful, once I find it.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: drjaking on October 08, 2019, 10:01:17 AM
p.s If you drop me your email address in a PM, I will send you something useful, once I find it.

As Johnny says, the vehicle needs to be elevated and _perfectly_ level to do the auto box.  Maybe you can find one of those places that leases time on a hoist?  Most of your hour would be waiting for the old oil to drain. 8 -)

Torque figures in this video.  Odd that someone with so much experience with these motive units has not done one before.
https://youtu.be/CERqRSK2SWM

I did see that but wasn't sure whether to believe the torques, he was a bit slapdash, eg on temperature.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: mike wilson on October 09, 2019, 08:52:18 AM
Unusual for him.  His videos are supremely irritating in mode of presentation but very useful.

He says to loosen the filler plug first to "let gravity in" by which I think he means air.  A more prosaic reason is that there is little less useful than a drained gearbox that will not let you refill it.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: drjaking on October 09, 2019, 09:19:01 AM
He also runs the engine with the air box off. Not saying I wouldn't, but I'd keep it to myself!

The Volvo video linked on the talkford thread is fantastic, my kingdom for a lift.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: mike wilson on October 10, 2019, 08:35:23 AM
You and me both.  They are not that expensive secondhand but I just don't have the room.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: drjaking on October 10, 2019, 12:56:00 PM
OK, done the job, here's a brief report:

1. I did it on the ground, no axle stands, no jacks. Left wheels on the kerb, camber of the road meant vehicle was level to <1deg X&Y and I could shuffle up the gutter with plenty of head room. Access to all plugs and the filter was fine. a long bar extension was helpful for getting the level plug tightened up. I used a Bic pen lid as a wedge for the filter housing, which I could insert from the top.

2. I made one error, I have no idea how, but I forgot to run through the gears prior to draining.

3. There was evidence of some kind of leak on the bottom surface of the gear box, but it looked more like engine oil.

4. 6 litres came out. 6.5 went in. This may be related to either 2 or 3 above.

5. A lot of fluid drained out prior to the final fill. It took a long time to stop, but eventually it did. After about 10 mins of slow drips I gave up waiting, did the refill, the nwaited again until I was down to slow drips, and replaced the level plug.

6. The fluid that came out was in pretty good condition. No particles in the fluid or on the filter. This is encouraging because (confession time) it is 60K miles since the last change. Don't judge me.

7. The vehicle drives well. I'm impressed with how well it drives for a car with 100K on the clock. Gear changes are quick and smooth. No idea if they are better than before! We'll see how it goes on a longer journey soon, hopefully the mistakes I made won't be a problem.

That's it. Thanks for your encouragement along the way.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: mike wilson on October 11, 2019, 09:11:02 AM
Have you owned from new?  If not, it's possible that there has been an undocumented change.  Unlikely, considering the cost, but I would have expected the oil at 60k to be in really horrid condition.  Unless it was used in ideal conditions - plenty of motorway miles with little changing.  The reason for such frequent changes is to deal with the wear particles from the clutches.  If it has been a long time since last change, hopefully the only downside will be slightly increased clutch plate wear.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: drjaking on October 11, 2019, 09:30:44 AM
There was a change at 40k which I now know is roughly when it was meant to be done. There were one or two very tiny particles, and nothing in the filter. The fluid still reasonably transparent. I'm hoping I got away with it. The car needs to go another 18m then I have to get rid due to ULEZ.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on October 13, 2019, 07:44:31 AM
If its only 18 miles then it might be best to take a taxi and not use the car until a sucker buys it, that way you save money by it wold only be fair to tell them when they are looking at it
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: johnnyroper on October 13, 2019, 08:56:49 AM
The OP wants to get 18 months out of his car before ULEZ comes in and forces a change to something suitable that wonít cost a fortune to go in to central London
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on October 13, 2019, 09:04:24 AM
Ah sorry I didnít realise it was months not miles! Hehe. I think itís definitely worth doing this job, theyíre nice cars and by doing it the resale value will be higher. I just made up the following saying: ďA drop of maintenance is worth a gallon of repairĒ and isnít that just so these days, what with modern cars and all their fancy components!
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: brianh on October 14, 2019, 08:33:45 PM
The OP wants to get 18 months out of his car before ULEZ comes in and forces a change to something suitable that wonít cost a fortune to go in to central London

I would guess its more a case of not inside the north/south circular road area, as the ULEZ will extend to that boundry in around 18 months time, not just central London (where it is already in force).

Incidentally my petrol 2.3 2001 Galaxy is ULEZ compliant at the current time. At least thats what the vehicle checker shows for it.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: johnnyroper on October 14, 2019, 10:10:23 PM
Most likely then I canít keep up with it all,I only really drive to west London North Pole or Paddington in work van that I assume is either compliant or the areas are outside the ULEZ area as no fines come through yet.
On subject of ULEZ coming from Bristol to Brent Cross will I encounter ULEZ?

Surprised a 2.3 galaxy would be compliant I expected it to be Euro 4 upwards  like CAZ proposals in Birmingham is a 2.3 euro 4?
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: johnnyroper on October 14, 2019, 10:15:29 PM
Just checked and regardless if Brent Cross is within my car is ULEZ compliant,didnít expect that with a 2009 330d it certainly does not comply to the proposed CAZ in Birmingham.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: drjaking on October 15, 2019, 07:41:55 AM
ULEZ is central London until Apr 2021, then everywhere invite N/S Circular. £12.50 any day you use the vehicle. Petrol cars Euro 4 and diesel Euro 6 are exempt. There are a lot of grumpy diesel owners who bought in good faith.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: SirDavidAlhambra on October 15, 2019, 07:52:40 AM
I once took a wrong turn near Paddington and sent about 10 metres into the cc zone and got fined £80 or something like that.

I remember the good old days where you could drive anywhere and park anywhere.

Also there are too many traffic lights now. I think most of them should be taken down and recycled.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: johnnyroper on October 15, 2019, 11:46:56 AM
ULEZ is central London until Apr 2021, then everywhere invite N/S Circular. £12.50 any day you use the vehicle. Petrol cars Euro 4 and diesel Euro 6 are exempt. There are a lot of grumpy diesel owners who bought in good faith.

No idea how mine shows as compliant then as itís Euro 5 engine,I wonít be questioning it mind
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: drjaking on October 15, 2019, 01:26:06 PM
I'd check again! Minimum is Euro 6 for diesel:

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/cars
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: johnnyroper on October 15, 2019, 05:24:46 PM
Defo says itís ok and V5 says euro 5 so been a mistake somewhere.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: drjaking on October 15, 2019, 06:28:59 PM
Try a different checker? When I was looking at cars to buy, there was of that wouldn't come up on one of the websites but did on another.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: brianh on October 15, 2019, 06:38:21 PM
Most likely then I canít keep up with it all,I only really drive to west London North Pole or Paddington in work van that I assume is either compliant or the areas are outside the ULEZ area as no fines come through yet.
On subject of ULEZ coming from Bristol to Brent Cross will I encounter ULEZ?

Surprised a 2.3 galaxy would be compliant I expected it to be Euro 4 upwards  like CAZ proposals in Birmingham is a 2.3 euro 4?

The current ULEZ zone is the same area as the congestion zone at the time of typing this.

The TFL checker is the one to use - as thats the data given by the same people enforcing the zone

On the Brent cross bit, if your parking in the Brent Cross shopping centre, then its outside, If you cross the north circular, it is inside and will cost you £12.50 (provided they don't put it up before then). There is a map on the TFL website showing the zone in great detail. Thats only from when they enlarge the zone in October 2021 though. you can view much more detailed maps here > https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ulez-where-and-when?intcmp=52227 (look towards the bottom of the page and 2 maps of the new zone are shown)

Not sure on the Euro level I think its a Euro 3 and microcat seems to agree - I expected the Galaxy to fall foul of it, but it doesn't - https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/check-your-vehicle-35896 , though central London also loads the on street parking by 50% ontop of normal rate for pre 2006 petrols and 2015 diesels. So you get hit twice for it. I think the Birmingham charge it will be affected by if they carry on in the current plan. I've checked other cars and found some surprising ones you wouldn't expect to be ok by age are shown to be as well, doesn't seem to be just a few many are ok when you'd expect otherwise. That may change when they enlarge the zone of course though the current plan suggests it will stay the same - http://lruc.content.tfl.gov.uk/lez-ulez-comparison-table.pdf

I'd keep a copy of the screenshot you made above if your going inside the zone though, just in case!
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: brianh on October 15, 2019, 06:41:30 PM
Also this is worth noting from the TFL website
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/cars
Minimum emission standards
Petrol: Euro 4
Diesel: Euro 6

The ULEZ is enforced based on the declared emissions of the vehicle rather than the age. However:

Petrol cars that meet the ULEZ standards are generally those first registered with the DVLA after 2005, although cars that meet the standards have been available since 2001

Diesel cars that meet the standards are generally those first registered with the DVLA after September 2015
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: drjaking on October 16, 2019, 08:16:16 AM
Vehicles classed as disabled for tax are exempt.
Title: Re: DIY timing belt?
Post by: brianh on October 16, 2019, 10:38:49 AM
Vehicles classed as disabled for tax are exempt.

A lot of those will be Motability vehicles anyway, so would be new enough to be exempt anyway